Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
Posts: 63
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Post by Gerry on Nov 7, 2008 12:52:52 GMT -6
Pvt. William Slaper also stated,"No one man can write a story of the fight in general (as many have done) without someone to dispute parts of it."
Now down through history's passing time, we should consider all first hand, eye witness accounts, as what they are; events experienced by individuals viewing the battle from their viewpoint, in their time frame and in their own words.
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Post by noggy on Jul 13, 2018 0:58:11 GMT -6
It`s a shame pictures in the old threads don`t survive.
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Post by shan on Sept 13, 2019 8:46:03 GMT -6
I have just been re-reading parts of John Greys book, ' Custer's Last Campaign,' to check what he had to say as to what Custer may or may not have seen of Reno's actions down in the valley, and I see that it was first printed back in 1993. Now, I read that book shortly after it came out, and I can remember very being impressed by it, as were, as far as I can remember, most of the critics. However, since then, a number of other authors have come up with differing variations on his timings, and again, I seem to remember that as a result, he received a lot of flack and accusations of bias.
Now as to why people felt the need to be so hard on him is something of a mystery to me, especially given that there are no hard facts as to what happened to Custer's command after he left the buffs. There are the bodies and the theories, not to mention the Indian testimony, but in the end, we're all involved in this never ending guessing game. For those that have never read him, I have to say that much of what he has to say stands up, I mean I'm not going to argue with him if he is five minutes out here or there, and what's more, on this re-reading, I found the book so readable I read on past the passage I wanted to check, and read the book to the end.
Of course there have been a number of developments since which throw a new light on things, timing matters for one, but on re-reading his accounts of Curly's various statements for instance, I was pretty convinced by his take on them, and am beginning to re-assess all the other evidence that states that Curly left early and was never anywhere near the battlefield. But then that's what keeps me dipping in and out of these boards, if you hang around long enough, what goes round comes back again as if its never been said.
Shan
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 13, 2019 10:24:38 GMT -6
Two summers ago I went to where my Marine friend who is Crow believes Curley watched the battle. It is across highway 212. If Curley separates in MTC everything he states in his first interview fits. Some soldiers went straight which leads to Luce. The gray horses turn down MTC toward the ford. I believe F and HQ were with them. Curley moves off the other direction and on a rise across the current 212. Martin states he was sent back at about 600 yards from MTF. If so then HQ was with gray horses. Thompson sees action near MTF and from his location it would include the area within 600 yards.
As far as Coulées I think Custer started down Cedar and moved into Middle. From Middle Coulée you can move straight across to Luce Ridge. Middle puts Custer close enough to the actual way down the river that Thompson describes to a leader's recon. This route is consistent with all three accounts.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by montrose on Sept 15, 2019 12:30:10 GMT -6
Grey was dying when he wrote the issues we discuss here. Just a reminder to take issues with his opinions, not the person.
He was not a historian and cherry picked to an insane degree to support his views. I am trying to think of any view I have of this battle based on this amateur animal vet's writing, and can't think of any.Grey is over rated in literature, he is just one of us. Total amateur, n background in military, history, rational thought, and type of academic reasoning.
I have emails with him from back when I was clueless on LBH. A decent person. Lol, we did not discuss LBH at all, was about fishing, military culture, just enjoying life stuff. Kinda wish I could have met him.
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Post by wild on Sept 16, 2019 8:24:43 GMT -6
A smigin of humanity from the good Colonel! There is after all flesh and blood behind the razor sharp dispatches from military central . Bravo , let us see more. Best Richard
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Post by shan on Sept 16, 2019 11:09:57 GMT -6
Montrose,
I appreciate what you say, and agree entirely that one should argue with peoples opinions rather that who they are, for as as you know yourself there have plenty of times on both boards when people would have done well to bear that in mind.
But that aside, I would value your opinion on Greys take on Curley's various statements, for he seems to me to very sympathetic to the man, especially the way that he has been derided over the years in certain quarters.
Personally, I've never felt that Curly was lying or trying to talk up his part in the battle, he was of course a victim ~ as were most Indians ~ of his interpreters and translators. We can never know what he really said, but we can get some sense of it from reading as many versions as we can lay our hands on, which I presume, was what Grey did. Of course I maybe wrong about this, but I'd be interested to hear what you think. Did he cherry pick when it came to what Curly had to say?
Shan
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Post by wild on Sept 16, 2019 13:08:54 GMT -6
Why was Curly making notes as to the movements of Custer'S units? How would he have known what was about to unfold? Had he detailed local knowledge of the terrain? Was he viewing from a point 1000 feet above the battle field? A very dubious witness at best, me thinks Cheers
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 17, 2019 7:38:47 GMT -6
Here is Curley's first interview.
Thomas Leforge, in his autobiographical narrative, stressed that the Army expected scouts to be non-participant in skirmishes and added this recollection:
I interpreted for Lieutenant Bradley when he interviewed Curly [sic], several days after the Custer battle had occurred. He was spoken of then as the 'sole survivor' of the disaster. But he himself did not lay claim to that kind of distinction. On the contrary, again and again during the long examination of him by Bradley, the young scout said, 'I was not in the fight.' When gazed upon and congratulated by visitors he declared, 'I did nothing wonderful; I was not in it. He told us that when the engagement opened he was behind, with other Crows. He hurried away to a distance of about a mile, paused there, and looked for a brief time upon the conflict. Soon he got still farther away, stopping on a hill to take another look. He saw some horses running away loose over the hills. He turned back far enough to capture two of the animals, but later he decided they were an impediment to his progress away from the Sioux, so he released them. He told me he directed his course toward Tulloch's Fork and came down the same trail I had come down on another occasion with Captain Bull and Lieutenant Rowe.
Romantic writers seized upon Curly as a subject suited to their fanciful literary purposes. In spite of himself, he was treated as a hero. He took no special pains to deny the written stories of his unique cunning. He could not read, he could speak only a little English, and it is likely he knew of no reason why he should make any special denial. The persistent claim put forward for him by others, but as though it came direct from him, brought upon him from some of the Sioux the accusation, 'Curly is a liar; nobody with Custer escaped us.' But he was not a liar. All through his subsequent life he modestly avowed from time to time what he did to Bradley, 'I did nothing wonderful; I was not in the fight.' I knew him from his early boyhood until his death in early old age. He was a good boy, an unassuming and quiet young man, a reliable scout, and at all times of his life he was held in high regard by his people.
— Leforge, Memoirs of a White Crow Indian, 1928 edition, p. 250.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 17, 2019 7:45:48 GMT -6
Wild
I don't think Curley kept track enough. He states the gray horses turned down MTC while others went across. I think the gray horses, F Company, and Custer turned down MTC and only three companies went straight across. Its easy to recall gray horses. He then moved away from the command to an observation point which is across highway 212. My friend a Marine and a Crow showed me this place a few years back. He own a big part of Cedar Coulée and we rode down it to MTC. Curley lived near Old Elks and his cabin is in Wyoming moved there for preservation. He could not read or write so its easy to see how these statements evolved over time. None were written by Curley and I will stick with his first I posted above.
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Oct 7, 2019 3:49:42 GMT -6
John S. Gray's final work reads very well and if you have battle knowledge then it is enervating. It undermines. The novelty of his approach and the flurry of points producing a rolling plethora of conclusions is used to bully his audience. It is a wonderfully useful style of writing and unsuited to the subject in historical terms but a fantastic novel. A degree of scientific approach can be attributed to what he did but in reality, the central tenet was a construction which could only be by starting in the middle and working all the data backwards and forwards in time from the moment that Gray surmised Custer watching Reno advancing in the valley. We know this happened from Curley and know that it happened before Reno halted his chare and fought on foot. It was remarkable that remains at marker 33 were then identified as being Mitch Bouyer whilst Gray was at a symposium at Little Bighorn as his book was published. It turns out today that the remains were not those of Bouyer since the image of Bouyer with which the skull relic was compared, was not a picture of Bouyer. Split wing theory has its attractions but so does recent reinterpretation of Wallace's testimony at he Reno Inquiry. 'E will support you!' Did Wallace hear Cooke tell Reno, that 'E' (Company E) will support you. Remember that the gray horses are supposed to have tried to do this but Reno had halted his advance without advising his CO, of it. Be well. Anecdote - The Corbomite Maneuver (S01E03) although its betterr in the dark.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 11, 2019 11:48:43 GMT -6
I think Gray starts at the divide and uses faulty overall rates of travel and then excludes what doesn't fit. For example Custer moves out toward the Indians because he believes they may have been discovered but Gray wants us to believe that Custer moved at a slower than a cavalry walk at 4 mph. The cavalry horse walked at 5 mph. On a march the walked 50 minute at 5mph and took a break for 10 minutes at 0 mph. That is an overall moving average of 4.2 mph and close to what Gray used. Just how many 10 minute breaks did Custer take after leaving the divide. Also Benteen's battalion observed them at a gallop which is a lope or canter of at least 10 mph. I doubt Custer's overall average from when he sent Benteen to the left until he sent Reno ahead was anything less than a trot range average.
A better treatise I believe is Fred Wagner's The Strategy of Defeat at the Little Big Horn.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Nov 13, 2019 4:20:49 GMT -6
Rate of advance offers guidance with watch times and which participants are moreso reliable. That's its only real worth. Pinpoint accuracy is a waddling duck with clipped wings which never qualifies theory because it is extruded supposition as quality. (don't worry about what I just said on extruded parenthetics).
Gray got his times seriously wrong. It's that simple. He wrote a very entertaining novel which is attractive to fertile minds in expanding the format of study. It is very intricate and pointed historical fiction which is blander than bouillon. He produced a worthwhile study of the packtrain and that excellent work then undermined his later projects because it didn't suit him to have 7th Cavalry closing rapidly to battle. He simply didn't get it that they were military.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2021 20:00:43 GMT -6
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