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Post by tubman13 on Feb 5, 2015 15:41:53 GMT -6
Tom Custer could have been showing initiative, bringing the command to be at hand for Georges pleasure. Added benefit, is he could now tell George of the NA's finding the dropped box though that was intended when the move began.
Regards, Tom
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 5, 2015 16:33:54 GMT -6
SF,
Step back and start to differentiate the wood from the trees. What did the main column moving from the Busby camp to Halt 1 actually achieve? How did it add to the scouting function of Varnum? How did it diminish from GAC's ability to bring the regiment up and attack at the time that GAC roughly expected the Terry blocking force to be manoeuvring into position...?
That initial movement was the catalyst for matters to spiral out of control, whether or not you believe that GAC should have allowed it to happen. Discovery and the fear of the village being warned and dispersing or scattering. An urgent attack, with tired troopers and no proper recon of the village or the terrain.
It is interesting how many times loss of control results from losing your time to think. Remember that famous White Star liner that had an infamous rendezvous with a growler iceberg...? By speeding circa 22 knts through an ice field, precious thinking time in the event of a collision scenario was removed. The W/O (3IC Murdoch) could do little other than tell the QM to put the tiller hard over to starboard. He followed that up with a full astern order but had no time to think through the cavitation implications of that order. The main centre propeller going dead with the turbine engine, with the rudder behind losing effectiveness sitting in its dying slipstream, and with the reciprocating engines engaging the two outer wing propellers into full astern. What was the overall impact of those two hurried orders, if there was time for the latter to be fully actioned before impact....? Murdoch did not reverse the port wing propeller only, the logical collision avoidance order consistent with putting the tiller hard over to starboard. He also did not present the vessel's bow and avoid presenting a partial broadside, if it was too late to avoid a collision and he was relying upon the collision bulkhead.
What was gained by the regiment leaving Busby for Halt 1....?
WO
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Post by quincannon on Feb 5, 2015 16:38:45 GMT -6
I think I now have a much clearer picture of what seems to be mud. It seems disjointed, or rather more like a puzzle with a vital piece missing.
It would seem simple if it were an initiative driven response to a known action, like moving upon news that they were apparently discovered. Moving off on their own hook, after Custer leaves but before the pack incident, just seems very strange.
The logic of the situation is for the decision to be made to move in the absence of the commander, based on what the senior officer feels the commander would do were he there should the same circumstance arise.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 5, 2015 16:48:54 GMT -6
Fred, did you ever think your 7 and change year old threads would grow legs? Heck, I was still gainfully employed, traveling to Portland, Seattle, LA, Dallas, and such, when you hung these up.
Regards, Tom
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 17:42:23 GMT -6
I think I now have a much clearer picture of what seems to be mud. It seems disjointed, or rather more like a puzzle with a vital piece missing. It would seem simple if it were an initiative driven response to a known action, like moving upon news that they were apparently discovered. Moving off on their own hook, after Custer leaves but before the pack incident, just seems very strange. The logic of the situation is for the decision to be made to move in the absence of the commander, based on what the senior officer feels the commander would do were he there should the same circumstance arise. Yes, seems like a piece is missing. The senior officer shouldn't feel the need to move if nothing of material significance has changed since the commander moved forward to scout. The commander didn't see the need.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 17:48:01 GMT -6
SF, Step back and start to differentiate the wood from the trees. What did the main column moving from the Busby camp to Halt 1 actually achieve? How did it add to the scouting function of Varnum? How did it diminish from GAC's ability to bring the regiment up and attack at the time that GAC roughly expected the Terry blocking force to be manoeuvring into position...? That initial movement was the catalyst for matters to spiral out of control, whether or not you believe that GAC should have allowed it to happen. Discovery and the fear of the village being warned and dispersing or scattering. An urgent attack, with tired troopers and no proper recon of the village or the terrain. It is interesting how many times loss of control results from losing your time to think. Remember that famous White Star liner that had an infamous rendezvous with a growler iceberg...? By speeding circa 22 knts through an ice field, precious thinking time in the event of a collision scenario was removed. The W/O (3IC Murdoch) could do little other than tell the QM to put the tiller hard over to starboard. He followed that up with a full astern order but had no time to think through the cavitation implications of that order. The main centre propeller going dead with the turbine engine, with the rudder behind losing effectiveness sitting in its dying slipstream, and with the reciprocating engines engaging the two outer wing propellers into full astern. What was the overall impact of those two hurried orders, if there was time for the latter to be fully actioned before impact....? Murdoch did not reverse the port wing propeller only, the logical collision avoidance order consistent with putting the tiller hard over to starboard. He also did not present the vessel's bow and avoid presenting a partial broadside, if it was too late to avoid a collision and he was relying upon the collision bulkhead. What was gained by the regiment leaving Busby for Halt 1....? WO Hard to starboard unfortunately sealed her fate. Should have rammed it.... Nothing was gained by the night march other than advancing the command closer to the village within premature striking distance at the expense of tiring the entire command. The move from halt one did cost GAC a few hours of critical thinking time and the opportunity for a less rushed officers call.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 5, 2015 18:27:20 GMT -6
SF,
Or "Hard-a-Starboard", to give the absolutely correct tiller order of that era....
WO
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Post by Beth on Feb 5, 2015 19:19:18 GMT -6
I think I now have a much clearer picture of what seems to be mud. It seems disjointed, or rather more like a puzzle with a vital piece missing. It would seem simple if it were an initiative driven response to a known action, like moving upon news that they were apparently discovered. Moving off on their own hook, after Custer leaves but before the pack incident, just seems very strange. The logic of the situation is for the decision to be made to move in the absence of the commander, based on what the senior officer feels the commander would do were he there should the same circumstance arise. Yes, seems like a piece is missing. The senior officer shouldn't feel the need to move if nothing of material significance has changed since the commander moved forward to scout. The commander didn't see the need. Is the missing piece known or was it lost on LSH?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 19:25:00 GMT -6
Yes, seems like a piece is missing. The senior officer shouldn't feel the need to move if nothing of material significance has changed since the commander moved forward to scout. The commander didn't see the need. Is the missing piece known or was it lost on LSH? I believe it is lost. Haven't seen anything concrete yet.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 5, 2015 20:08:54 GMT -6
I would tend to agree. For every movement there must be a reason. It does not have to be a good reason, but there must be a reason.
WO: You will be pleased to know that I am watching Robin Hood with Flynn. As the Sheriff and Guy de Rathbone are escorting Maid Marion and a chest full of gold through Sherwood the Sheriff asks Sir Guy, shouldn't we put out flankers in this forest. You could also tell that the point and rear guards got whacked first, before the main body. Funny what you can learn from the movies.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 5, 2015 22:32:52 GMT -6
QC,
Clearly a film never shown in the People's Republic of Boulder....
WO
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Post by quincannon on Feb 5, 2015 23:18:45 GMT -6
I would suspect you are correct. I was amazed though at how much England resembles California.
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Post by Beth on Feb 6, 2015 0:29:28 GMT -6
I would suspect you are correct. I was amazed though at how much England resembles California. EVERYWHERE resembles California. I am always amazed when I see the Iowa Mountains in movies--I never realized how much they look like mountains around Burbank. Beth
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Feb 6, 2015 0:52:08 GMT -6
Colonial India resembles California. Gunga Din 1939.
While visiting England ( aka Bidwell Park in Chico, California ) I stood by the tree that Flynn swings over to welcoming the Sheriff of Nottingham to Sherwood Forrest, or so I am told.
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Feb 6, 2015 0:55:44 GMT -6
You may very well be correct. I have a more jaded view of Custer. WO, good points. Custer wasn't tired. Being the narcissist he was, I believe that he didn't really worry too much about whether his men were tired or not. Custer was only too happy to move ahead and attack. He wanted this to be a 7th Cavalry show. Waiting for Terry and Gibbon would not be something he preferred. Every day of delay brought Terry's command closer to the village. In a way Custer had two enemies. The NA's and the chance that he would have to share the victory with Terry and Gibbon. So when the chance came he moved ahead. Please, recognize that this is my opinion. I've stood up on the Crow's Nest at dawn and at noon. You look down at the line of trees where the village was and you can't see much. I believe the scouts saw what they needed to, but Custer couldn't see it nor could Varnum. A simple advanced scout would have been in order. A man like Custer didn't seem to want to or take the time. Shaw,
(1) I sometimes think the "GAC glory" is overplayed. GAC would have spun that the 7th won this battle, especially to the press, even if the blocking force had been present at the engagement. Try getting CNN and Fox to focus on a blocking force commander even in the 21st century. The glamour goes with the strike force. (2) I think Varnum trusted the scouts and their expertise, and it was really GAC seeking his own confirmation.
The catalyst for the events of the 25th was the main body of the regiment being far too close rather than back at Busby.
WO
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