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Post by elisabeth on Oct 18, 2007 10:39:14 GMT -6
Makes sense to me, Fred, for what that's worth.
It also resolves the twilight/9 p.m. discrepancy in the June 24th night thread. If sundown's around 9 p.m. local time, Varnum would have trouble doing a "two-hour ride" (per Willert) between twilight and 9 p.m. Adjusted as you suggest, it falls into place.
It'll be interesting to see what this does to Godfrey's "4.20" notation ...
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Post by crzhrs on Oct 18, 2007 11:08:42 GMT -6
In a letter to his parents Varnum stated:
Custer wanted some intelligent white man to go ahead with them to send him information. I took the six Crows, five Rees, and a white man, who was an old frontiersman, and we marched all night, making about sixty miles. I had rode without rest or any sleep for thirty-six hours. Custer said he would start at 11 p. m., and come somewhere near us by morning. At 2:30 o'clock we reached the hill . .
______
Varnum did not state what time he started but only arrival time . . . 2:30 a.m., June 25.
Robinson is throwing me off here. I either misread or he made a major error in his references. I'll go back and double check. Maybe I'm reading him wrong.
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Post by markland on Oct 19, 2007 8:31:11 GMT -6
Fred, a quick question. We all occasionally run into newspaper articles about either the campaign or giving background information and / or rumors. Would you want those posted in these threads?
Be good,
Billy
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Post by fred on Oct 19, 2007 15:00:49 GMT -6
Fred, a quick question. We all occasionally run into newspaper articles about either the campaign or giving background information and / or rumors. Would you want those posted in these threads? Billy--
Absolutely. This is a series of threads outlining the entire campaign. Newspaper articles were certainly a part of that.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 31, 2007 15:38:34 GMT -6
Also, what are you thinking is the Rubicon? The significance to Caesar was that, once crossed, you were committed. You couldn't change your mind and have Rome say 'no problemo' if you went back. Once over, he had to follow through. I can see crossing the divide as crossing a Rubicon. I can see crossing MTC as crossing THE Rubicon of his demise. But that isn't what you're referencing.
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Post by fred on Oct 31, 2007 16:50:27 GMT -6
C'mon Darkcloud, gimme a break here, stop the toying around. You know very well I'm referring to the LBH River.
I apologize for not working on your glossary, but I do have other things going on in my life and this has been something of a... well, you, of all people, know what. There are as many personalities here as there are opinions. Since-- believe it or not-- I do have a lot of respect for both you and your opinions, I would feel flattered if you would define a few of the bruisers you are having trouble with. I would then gladly go back and raise hell with the offenders. That way you can tee-hee yourself to sleep and the two of us could feel we have jointly accomplished something.
Besides, you should be a part of this, if not as a direct-quote contributor, then certainly as something of a monitor. That way I'd owe you one and you could call in the marker at your leisure.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by bc on Nov 12, 2007 11:46:54 GMT -6
Hi, being a north/south, compass bearing, and grid coordinates kind of guy; could someone state for the record, which way the rivers (lbh, powder, tongue, jellystone, etc) and creeks were flowing so that I and other neophytes can fully understand the "ups and downs" of movements on the creeks, rivers, and valleys and further orient them to a map using quadrants of the compass such as north, northeast, etc.? I believe most rivers were flowing "up" to the north to the jellystone and then "up" to the east to the Missouri but it is one of those ground rules that should be listed. Thanks.
I may have to order the topo from the USGS to put on the wall if I am going to try to follow all this. I went to google earth, found the monument at last stand hill, then laid the map out flat to see the hills, etc. except my computer monitor didn't have enough resolution to see much close up. Maybe someone else may have better luck. There are a couple other satelite photo sites also. If there are any online maps available, let us know. I would like to see the drawing made by Beenteen and the map used at the RCOI if available online.
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Post by BrokenSword on Nov 12, 2007 14:19:12 GMT -6
Hi Bab-
'Upriver' is the direction the water is coming from and 'downriver' is the direction the water is going to. Normally, compass readings have nothing to do with those terms' usage.
BUT as with most things on this board that's just one opinion.
M
P.S. - I might add. Since water pretty much goes where it wants to, one can be following a river/creek/stream in a number of compass directions during the trip while trekking either upriver or downriver.
Frankly, I have trouble remembering which way to set the clock for Daylight Saving or Standard times.
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Post by fred on Nov 12, 2007 14:57:27 GMT -6
"bc," Montana, and BrokenSword--
Pay attention to this statement: under no circumstances will anyone get slammed for asking questions, no matter how "neophyte" they may seem or sound. I will delete any post this is offensive or takes anyone to task for not knowing something. None of us have any right to scoff at or look down on anyone for not knowing something. Everyone has been in the same position and many of us still are. So please, ask away.
Now, to see if I can clarify some things. BrokenSword is absolutely correct. You figure the "up" and "down" of a river from the direction of its flow. "Down" is the direction it is going, i.e, toward its mouth or egress; "up" is the direction the river is coming from, its source. You figure its sides in the same way. If you were to straddle a river, its right bank is your right side as you faced downstream in the direction the water is flowing. Obviously, the river's left side is your left side. Just as a "general" direction, the rivers in the campaign all basically ran from the south to the north and emptied into the Yellowstone which was running from west to east. Those are all general by a long stretch. The LBH runs south to north, then cuts into the Big Horn which runs north into the Yellowstone.
As for maps, if you call the bookstore at the LBH, they will send you the topo maps of the area. There are 8 sheets at $8 each and I believe they are formed 1-3-4. In other words, one on top, three side-by-side below that one, and four side-by-side below those. As an old (careful how you refer back using that word!!! [that's a joke]) soldier, I used to take my maps, trim the "every-other edge" and "every-other-top-and-bottom," and then use rubber cement to glue them together. These are decent maps, though they're old (1967, with much of the elevation data being 1929; but that's OK because you are not using them for roads and such).
Another thing that will drive you crazy about maps, but you should be aware of, is that large is small and small is large. In other words, these maps are 1:24,000 scale. You know what that means, right? Easy. But when you refer to a larger scale, you actually use a smalled number. So, 1:12,000 is a larger scale than 1:24,000, meaning the terrain features on a 1:12,000 map are double the size they appear on a 1:24,000 map. Comprenez-vous?
If you do purchase those maps and you want a lesson or two on how to read them, just let me know. We can do it by PM, by e-mail, or by telephone. I would be delighted to help.
Now, a fun map. The bookstore used to sell (I didn't see them there this last trip) a beautifully stylized map of the battlefield by the McElfresh Company in New York. (They have a Website, so you can always go there and buy one; they also sell similar maps for other famous battles; great stuff.) There are some inaccuracies on the map, but you really have to know your stuff to find them and even then it is a matter of opinion. The McElfresh map great fun and it is really something you need to have.
Let the questions fly.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 12, 2007 16:44:44 GMT -6
Fred if you straddle the river facing the other way, facing upstream, is the right bank on your left side ?
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Post by fred on Nov 12, 2007 16:53:18 GMT -6
Fred if you straddle the river facing the other way, facing upstream, is the right bank on your left side ? You clown! Yes!Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Montana Bab on Nov 12, 2007 18:06:59 GMT -6
I may have to order the topo from the USGS to put on the wall if I am going to try to follow all this. I went to google earth, found the monument at last stand hill, then laid the map out flat to see the hills, etc. except my computer monitor didn't have enough resolution to see much close up. Maybe someone else may have better luck. There are a couple other satelite photo sites also. If there are any online maps available, let us know. I would like to see the drawing made by Beenteen and the map used at the RCOI if available online. bc There is a website where you can get online RCOI proceedings including exhibits and all. My computor won't allow me to use that thingy that makes web addresses smaller, but I hope this will work: digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?id=History.Reno It will bring up the contents page, scan down to Exhibit No. 2 and it will show Engineer McGuire's map. Don't know if this is the map you refer to, but it is the map the court used for the RCOI. Hope this helps. BTW, thanks again for opening this thread. I needed that! Born & Bred
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Post by BrokenSword on Nov 12, 2007 18:18:34 GMT -6
fred- .....or you can do what I do.
Pop some pink smoke, get on the radio and ask someone to look on their map and tell me where the heck they see it.
M
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Post by fred on Nov 12, 2007 18:35:14 GMT -6
Pop some pink smoke, get on the radio and ask someone to look on their map and tell me where the heck they see it. Michael-- That was usually my job. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Nov 12, 2007 18:37:54 GMT -6
Montana--
It's a common mistake, so don't feel so bad. It's like the left bank and the right bank of the Seine. Always look at the river in the direction it flows.
Very best wishes, Fred.
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