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Post by harpskiddie on Oct 4, 2007 18:26:28 GMT -6
Hunk:
Why not do a review of the book? I have it, but stopped reading part way through. A review would be almost certain to draw responses from those with something pro or con to say.
Gordie, for me and my true love will never meet again, on the bonnie, bonnie banks....................
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Post by gary on Oct 5, 2007 10:52:24 GMT -6
I would be interested in a review of Wayne Sarf's LBH book. I have been thinking of buying a copy.
I am currently reading his dissertation on Sheridan's 1868/69 winter campaign (the Washita attack etc) and can say that it is very impressive. It gives a balanced, detailed account. Anyone interested can get a copy through UMI Dissertation Services. I understand that it may come out in book form in due course.
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Post by elisabeth on Oct 5, 2007 11:05:26 GMT -6
Gary, that's good to know. Thanks. I'll look for it.
I was very impressed with Sarf's writing; very lucid, very (I thought) balanced. My only beef with the book on a first reading was the absence of citations, which I presume is due to the policy of the imprint. I'd want to re-read it before attempting a review, however ...
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Post by gary on Oct 5, 2007 11:42:26 GMT -6
His "Sheridan's Winter Campaign" has copious footnotes. In fact, I was impressed by the range of sources. Some quite obscure ones.
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Post by elisabeth on Oct 6, 2007 2:28:09 GMT -6
For anyone else who's ordering the dissertation, it's best to search on the UMI site under the title "A Winter Campaign".
Thanks again for the tip-off, Gary.
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Post by alfuso on Oct 6, 2007 3:33:11 GMT -6
Wayne Sarf's book is worth is for his sidebars alone.
alfuso
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Post by markland on Oct 6, 2007 9:48:39 GMT -6
Gary, that's good to know. Thanks. I'll look for it. I was very impressed with Sarf's writing; very lucid, very (I thought) balanced. My only beef with the book on a first reading was the absence of citations, which I presume is due to the policy of the imprint. I'd want to re-read it before attempting a review, however ... I had stumbled upon that at the Combined Arms the curriculum resources section at Ft. Leavenworth (the books used in the courses taught-which can be an expensive browsing session because I always spot something that needs to fit into my library!) and was impressed. I contacted Dr. Sarf and he is indeed rewriting it for broader publication. I will find out how far along he has gotten. Since he used to peruse these boards, he may directly answer our question himself. Best of wishes, Billy
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Post by alfuso on Oct 7, 2007 1:05:57 GMT -6
Markland - outstanding! Sarf's books are always good reads.
alfuso
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Oct 7, 2007 6:49:06 GMT -6
Getting back to 'Custer's Fall', I was intrigued to read an Editorial note in Richard Hardorff's 'Hokahey! A Good Day to Die', to the effect that 'After reading Miller's publication in 1957, Walter Camp wrote a friend that "a good deal seems to be lifted from my books, and that a good deal of the rest is unreliable." Hardorff points out that Camp may have had some justification because on Miller's roster appears the name Long Robe instead of Long Road, which repeats an error made by Camp in both his publications. There are further examples given of Miller repeating more Camp errors, together with details of other inconsistencies. One in particular I found amusing where Hardorff berates Miller for ignoring professional courtesy 'by not giving credit to the many published sources and their authors, from which he "borrowed" so liberally.' Am I mistaken or did I read a criticism on these boards directed at Hardorff for being guilty of a similar offence?
Hunk
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Post by gary on Oct 7, 2007 8:42:53 GMT -6
Hi Hunk,
I am not sure that the Camp story can be true, as I believe that Camp died in 1925. As far as I know, he had not written his planned LBH book by the time of his death. Indeed, his notes were hard to get to for many years. From what I have been told of the original notes, Richard Hardorff has accomplished quite a task in transcribing what he has.
Having made that point, and having recently read Miller's book, I am certain that he (Miller) had, quite legitimately, used other writers' accounts to pad out his own information. This was one of the reasons that I was interested in finding out if his notes were accessible.
I ought to add that it is far from being my favorite LBH book. I did however enjoy reading it and I liked the feel of the book.
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Post by harpskiddie on Oct 7, 2007 10:18:12 GMT -6
Everyone gets his information somewhere. Walter Camp had the enviable opportunity of being able to interview participants, as did Miller [to a lesser extent - the opportunity, that is]. Some of my research notes are based upon Camp's widespread papers - so are everybody else's who cares a whit for truth in advertising.
Camp was not alive to read Miller's Custer's Fall, as Gary points out. I don't have Hardorff's "Hokahey!" and don't intend to buy it. Most of Hardorff's work I have found well-researched and very helpful in getting to primary sources.
I hope that Miller's interview notes are in better shape than Camp's!!!!!!!!!!!
Gordie, can you make out what that squiggle is? Are you sure that this card belongs with these others?..........
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Oct 7, 2007 12:45:31 GMT -6
Sorry guys, Mea Culpa, my rheumy old eyes have blown it again. In my post #23 for Walter Camp read Walter Campbell, presumably a.k.a. Stanley Vestal. I blame their mothers for choosing the same given name!
Hunk
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Post by Melani on Oct 8, 2007 10:52:18 GMT -6
I have great affection for Custer's Fall, as it was the first "grown-up" book I read on LBH, when I was about 14. I still have the original paperback copy, with a rather lurid cover featuring a howling warrior with buffalo horns and purple war paint. Sarf's comment was the first clue I had that Miller might not be all that reliable. I have now concluded that I have more reading to do than I will be able to complete in my lifetime. I have since come to believe that his account of Custer being hit at MTC doesn't really ring true. Does that story appear anywhere else?
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Post by crzhrs on Oct 8, 2007 12:24:18 GMT -6
Miller was able to talk to several of the warriors who fought at the LBH. He took the time to learn their language and because of that the Indians felt more comfortable and trusted Miller than a White man who had to use interpreters. And anything interpreted can be twisted or misleading.
At least Miller knew the language and was able to translate it first hand.
How much the Indians tried to hoodwink Miller is not known. But they did trust him and gave him an honorary Indian name so there may be some credance to his book.
Whether he embellished it or used it verbatim is the question. When he wrote the Indians said Custer was killed at the river crossing it may have come from the Indians and not Miller and he wrote what they told him.
However, it's always up to the author to check sources & references, but how could you when the Indians were the only ones who witnessed what happened and survived?
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Post by harpskiddie on Oct 8, 2007 12:50:11 GMT -6
If I remember correctly [and I may not, so check the book], nobody said that they killed or wounded Custer, but rather that "a leader in buckskin on a roan horse" was shot and fell off his horse into the river.
Gordie, the noon day train will bring Frank Miller - if I'm a man, I must be brave, and I must face that deadly killer, or die a coward, a craven coward; and lie a coward in my grave.......................
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