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Post by Tricia on Aug 17, 2007 8:36:27 GMT -6
I like Elvis, but John Lennon was the man responsible for my marriage! What's sad is that I still can't really listen to the man's music without tears. That said, I don't have any cool stories (I was a little kidlet when the Beatles broke up) other than I visited Abbey Road last time I was in Britain ...
My best pal in Arkansas just back from Vegas where she saw Circque de Soleil's Love. Absolutely overwhelming!
--t.
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Aug 17, 2007 10:27:21 GMT -6
My best pal in Arkansas just back from Vegas where she saw Circque de Soleil's Love. Absolutely overwhelming! --t. Yeah the soundtrack album of Beatles songs from that show, remixed by George Martin, is really cool, Trish - have you heard it? ciao, GAC
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Aug 17, 2007 16:08:28 GMT -6
There was an article in yesterday's edition of newspaper called the 'Daily Mail' with a huge headline 'RIDDLE OF THE SALFORD SIOUX'. It begins, "At 6ft 7in tall, the Sioux warrior must have been an imposing sight on the plains of South Dakota. In 19th century Salford he was a source of fascination and mystery." He apparently caught a chest infection in the winter of 1887 and his body vanished from the local hospital. The article indicates that he was probably buried in a traditional Sioux ceremony conducted by Red Shirt and Black Elk, then goes on to say that Queen Victoria particularly admired the chief, Red Shirt. I'll keep you all posted if I see any press follow up articles.
Hunk I was never King of nothin' but this wild week end....
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Post by gary on Aug 18, 2007 11:07:46 GMT -6
The Salford Sioux story was first highlighted in the British press last February, although the story had a different slant at that time. Salford is near Manchester in the north of England. Here is an article that was in our Daily Mirror at the time:
"THE SIOUX OF SALFORD
EXCLUSIVE. American Indian Charging Thunder came to England with Buffalo Bill and settled in the Wild North West, where his descendants still live. By Adam Luck.
THE closest Rita Parr has ever got to the Wild West is Disneyland - but that hasn't stopped the Manchester granny laying claim to her own tribe: the Salford Sioux.
Rita and cousin Gary Williams are the sole surviving grandchildren of Native American chief Charging Thunder, who brought a taste of the Wild West to the North West more than 100 years ago.
The then 26-year-old Lakota Sioux warrior set up camp close to Old Trafford in 1903 as part of Buffalo Bill's legendary Wild West Circus. But when the show left town, he and his American wife Josephine stayed behind in Salford.
Before long, he'd swapped his ceremonial headdress for a cloth cap and changed his name to the very British George Edward Williams.
This extraordinary tale only came to light when local historian Steve Coen saw some intriguing sepia pictures of the troupe in Salford. His public appeal for relatives brought forward Rita and Gary, and they revealed why their grandparents had decided to stay.
Rita, 66, says: "Their first child Bessie - my aunt - caught diphtheria and she was confined to a sanatorium so they had to stay behind when the circus moved on. But they never left. "For some reason they moved to Darwen in Lancashire and set up home there."
The American couple had two more children: Gladys, Rita's mother, and Gary's father George. Eventually the couple moved to Gorton, Manchester and stayed there for the rest of their lives. Charging Thunder became a well-known and respected figure in the community, working as a handyman at Belle Vue Circus and a local engineering firm and as a doorman at the local cinema. Rita, who still lives in Gorton, says: "He was the thrower-outer at the picture house and he became well known in the local community.
"They called him Darkie, affectionately, and he did not mind it in the slightest. Everybody respected him and the family. "If there was a problem everyone would say 'Go and ask Darkie.'"
THERE are plenty of stories about him still doing the rounds. "There was a famous elephant at the circus called Nellie and when my grandfather got drunk he went to sleep in Nellie's stall. "The elephant would stand guard over him. No-one could go near him until he was sober or ready to move."
The Wild West Circus first came to the UK in 1887 when it spent six months at Earls Court, staging several Royal Command Performances for Queen Victoria. It moved to Salford, where tepees were erected on the banks of the River Irwell. It played to packed audiences for five months. Lakota Sioux warriors were among the 97 Native Americans who enchanted locals with trick riding and death-defying stunts.
Many had good reason to make the trip to Europe. Gary, 65, says: "Many were wanted by the US government for their involvement in The Battle of Little Bighorn, where General Custer was killed."
The show returned to Salford in 1903, this time bringing with them Charging Thunder and Josephine, a white American horse trainer. Gary says: "My grandmother would stand in the middle with the whip making the horses rear up and my grandfather rode the horses bareback doing handstands and jumping from horse to horse."
Charging Thunder's first job here also saw him work with animals. Rita says: "He used to carry a large snake around during the circus parade while dressed in his Indian regalia with headdress and beads. "Once, the snake tightened its grip around him. He tried to resist it but he was soon having trouble breathing so he took out his large knife and cut its head off. "The circus boss said 'Why on earth did you do that? Do you know how much a snake costs?' My grandfather said 'You can always buy a new snake but you cannot buy a new Charging Thunder.' He was fired!"
Both Rita and Gary believe that their grandfather was happy in Manchester. Rita says: "I never heard stories about him wanting to go back but he did have illnesses with the damp cold. Sadly, he caught pneumonia and died before I was born in 1929 aged 52."
Gary, a retired lecturer who lives in Holmes Chapel, Cheshire, never met his grandfather either but visited Belle Vue Circus often as a child. He says: "My father was a baker but he maintained links with Belle Vue. He knew Sabu the elephant trainer, a close friend of my grandfather's who would let me have a free ride on the elephant."
The father-of-one still remembers his grandfather's Indian regalia. He says: "My aunt Bessie had some artefacts: a feather bonnet, tomahawks and beads, but they were getting a bit battered by then. Eventually they were lost. What happened to them I just don't know."
For Gary, his ethnic roots have always been a source of pride and something he has never been allowed to forget. He says: "We were on holiday in Arizona a few years ago when we visited this Native American tourist centre and I was approached by one of the locals who asked me: 'What tribe are you from?' "I was amazed but clearly they saw the similarity. I have always been proud of being from a warrior nation and so was my father. I am interested in the military and so is my son, so there must be something in the genes."
Despite visits to the US, Gary has never ventured to South Dakota. He says' "I was told there is suspicion about unknown whites so I have never managed to visit. "They are still being given a rough deal by the American government to this day. They have never been forgiven for being the last Indian tribe to surrender to the whites."
To Rita and Gary's astonishment, historian Steve discovered after a visit to the US last year that they have a cousin in South Dakota called Mike Her Many Horses. Rita says: "I am really grateful to Steve - to discover we have a cousin out there is incredible. We have not spoken yet but I am sure we will."
And if Gary and Rita are unlikely to venture to South Dakota, Steve has decided the best solution is to bring the Lakota Sioux to Salford. He says: "Salford Council have been very supportive and are keen to develop this link. "I hope we can bring around 30 Sioux over for a ceremony at the Salford Quays this year. "What is important for me is that this is not just about history but also the present and the future. I want to see these links developed to help both communities."
Mike Her Many Horses, talking from South Dakota, told the Daily Mirror: "We knew some of our people stayed in Europe but I was not aware of this link with the UK. "To find out I have cousins in England is fantastic. The idea of some of us coming over for a reunion or reconnection is great. "Certainly I cannot remember anyone looking for my family."
Such has been the reaction to the extraordinary story that Coen is being offered book and movie deals. But for him there there remains some unfinished business. As well as finding out about Charging Thunder, he discovered that a Lakota girl called Frances Victoria Alexander was born in Salford. He believes at least five Sioux warriors were left stranded in 1888 when the circus left town. He said: "What happened to them? These were young men in their prime and it is not difficult to imagine that they fraternised with the local women. It would be great to track down their descendants as well."
With Gary, however, his pride at finding a new family can't conceal one area of uncertainty about his identity. Gary says: "I always get confused when I have to fill in forms where they ask you to declare your race. "They never have 'Native American' do they? I always wonder what I should put down!"
Are you descended from native Americans who came to Britain?"
Careful readers will have spotted a few obvious errors, but this is still an interesting story.
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ssbba
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Post by ssbba on Sept 2, 2007 9:53:32 GMT -6
Hi guys,
From memory, Alan Gallop (in "Buffalo Bill's Wild West") specifically denies that Surrounded was buried in the West Brompton Cemetery, London.
I, however, have information that he was. Drop me an e-mail, and I'll pass it on.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by Diane Merkel on Oct 5, 2007 7:40:49 GMT -6
Here's another story that Henri found: The mystery of where a Sioux warrior - who died in Salford 120 years ago - lies buried has been solved.
The man, named Surrounded by the Enemy, came to the north west as part of Buffalo Bill's circus in 1887 and was thought to have been buried on what is now the site of the BBC's new Media City complex in Salford.
But a policeman has traced his grave more than 200 miles away to Brompton Cemetery, a Royal park in west London.
Pc Nigel Keane, of the Metropolitan Police, said: "I suspect they brought his body down to London by train so he could be buried near his fellow Lakota warrior Paul Eagle Star.
"He was buried without any ceremony which I expect means he was not a Christian convert." Article: www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1018337_sioux_mystery_solved
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Post by strange on Oct 5, 2007 7:55:28 GMT -6
Interesting ye all bring up massive Indians.
It is said that some of the early settlers found some 8 foot tall and higher statured Indian remains from a burial ground somewhere. The Indians then apparently warred with the settlers over desecrating their burial grounds and since then these groups of 8, 9, 10,12 footers that they found have not been heard from since.
I wish I could be more specific (I never am very often), but all of this apparently went on on the east coast as I would imagine since it were the Early colonies and all.
Stranger
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Post by elisabeth on Oct 5, 2007 7:59:14 GMT -6
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Post by Diane Merkel on Oct 7, 2007 16:05:06 GMT -6
Thanks very much, Elisabeth. I love old cemeteries. If I ever get back to London, the Brompton Cemetery will be on my list of places to see. Just curious -- On the map linked below, there are large areas outlined in red that are labeled "dissenters." Do you know what that means? At first I thought they might be enemies of the throne, but then why would they be buried there in the first place? www.royalparks.org.uk/docs/park_maps/brompton_cemetery.pdf
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Post by elisabeth on Oct 7, 2007 16:57:50 GMT -6
In a way, yes ...
We have the quaint institution here of a "state" religion, the Church of England. (Invented by King Henry VIII when he split us off from the then world-dominating Catholic church in the so-called Reformation.) For a long time, there were strict laws compelling attendance at church every Sunday, and that sort of thing. Kind of a test of political loyalty to the Crown. As various breakaway Protestant sects came along (e.g. Methodists, Baptists, Congregationalists etc.) they became labelled as "Dissenters", and were persecuted in a mild way: debarred from certain offices, and so on. I had not realised that discrimination against them extended to place of burial, though! Maybe it's because this is a Royal Park. I'm pretty sure that in the rest of the country, Dissenters were buried in parish churchyards just like everybody else ... But I could be wrong. I must find out.
Needless to say, it's a distinction that's long forgotten nowadays. I'm not sure when it was dropped officially -- early 19th century, I'd guess? -- but it's certainly irrelevant now. (We're a very irreligious nation, on the whole!)
If Prince Charles ever becomes King, it's likely that he'll abolish the notion of a "state religion" in any case. He's already said that he intends to change the royal title of "Defender of the Faith" to "Defender of Faiths", to reflect our multi-cultural nature. So presumably the Dissenters' section of the cemetery would then cease to be separate ...
Fascinating. Glad you pointed that out!
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Post by BrokenSword on Oct 7, 2007 17:26:14 GMT -6
Burial customs can be facinating - even among we 'white' people.
Here in the southern USA, cemeteries were traditionally layed out with the headstones facing East so as to be facing the 'glorious sunrise' of Judgement Day. People considered to be 'evil' were buried with their headstones facing in the opposite direction. The particularly bad or wicked or non-believers were buried face down. Those who had died by their own hand were buried in a north to south orientation (giving rise to the slang expression 'he came in sideways' meaning a suicide).
My family has its own cemetery in Mississippi that dates back to the early 1840's. Many interesting stories there.
One of my ancestors just didn't get along with his wife and the two didn't speak for twenty-two years - to the day he died. She died twelve years after him and left instructions that she be buried behind him facing in the opposite direction. So, there they are - 93 years later - with their backs to each other still. Now THAT'S stubborn! Its true.
Hindu saying: God gave man truth. Then Satan came and said, "Let us organized this 'truth', and we shall call it religion."
M
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Oct 30, 2007 14:42:52 GMT -6
The Salford Sioux story was briefly resurrected today, on one of the BBC's 'interest' programmes 'The One Show' when a reporter visited the site of Charging Thunder's grave and interviewed Gary Williams about his ancestor. Also shown were some old grainy moving pictures of Buffalo Bill's show in Salford. One thing that was said intrigued me and that was that some of the Indians in the show were 'wanted men' back in the U.S.A. Was this true and if so what were they wanted for?
Hunk
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Post by clw on Oct 31, 2007 7:11:48 GMT -6
Many Indians joined Buffalo Bill's international tours because they feared reprisals for their actions in the Indian Wars. Were they actually 'wanted' in today's terms? Probably not, but I think this is where the statement comes from.
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ssbba
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Post by ssbba on Nov 26, 2007 9:51:19 GMT -6
I have recently been in contact with the Supervisor of Brompton Cemetery, London, and I can pass on the information that it is a matter of official record that Surrounded by the Enemy was buried there on the 15th of December 1887, and NOT in Salford.
I recently wrote an article for the Thunderbird North American Indian Society about this, so if anyone wants the details, just ask.
Four other Indians from the Wild West show were buried at Brompton. Of these, the remains of Paul Eagle Star, Long Wolf and a little girl named Star Ghost Dog were repatriated to South Dakota during the 1990s. Insofar as I am able to determine, just one - an eighteen month old boy named Red Penny - is still there, but my investigations are continuing.
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ssbba
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Post by ssbba on Nov 26, 2007 9:57:29 GMT -6
PS - I have just seen PC Nigel Keane's comments, which are broadly correct, but I doubt that Surrounded was buried at Brompton to be close to Paul Eagle Star - Paul Eagle Star did not die until 1891, which was almost four years later.
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