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Post by Tricia on Oct 17, 2006 10:33:51 GMT -6
RAO--
It wasn't a matter of having two different dress unis, but rather something in the developing/chemical process on either the actual glass plate or in the darkroom that caused yellows to look black on photos of the period. I tend to think it was the plate coating, but I may be entirely wrong. And thanks to your efforts in finding Barry's connection to the Weir photo, I'm wondering if he had the funds to use alternative processing or plate solutions to overcome the loss of the yellow? I know a lot of his 7th Cavalry photos are up at the Custer Battlefield Museum, but for the life of me, I can't remember how the stripes and horsehair appeared.
Just a thought. Keep those photos coming! LMC
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Post by Diane Merkel on Oct 17, 2006 12:07:28 GMT -6
Once again risking my marriage . . . . This is the back of the Weir-Nina photo. It is the only one we know of that Weir signed. The notation at the bottom about Weir's death is by Edgerly. From my husband's manuscript: In June [1875] Weir's photograph was made while wearing his full dress uniform. He was seated while Cornelia (Nina) Tilford, daughter of Major Joseph Greene Tilford, stood beside him and posed by his left side with both of her hands clasped on his shoulder. Weir must have liked the photograph of himself holding his sabre and wearing his shiny cavalry boots because he signed a copy of one on 19 June, while he was at Fort Seward, and presented it to his adjutant, Second Lieutenant Winfield Scott Edgerly. He goes on to say that Libbie had her photo made with Nina that same day, but the location is not known. "It was the last known photo taken of Weir in a photographer's studio." The last known photo is Goff's July 1875 photo of the group by the Little Hart River. Elisabeth, that looks like Libbie to me. I agree she's a bit gloomy, but Nina has a rather strange expression also.
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Post by Tricia on Oct 17, 2006 13:08:22 GMT -6
Diane--
I promise I won't tell. Weir photo? What Weir photo?
--LMC
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Post by Diane Merkel on Oct 17, 2006 13:27:41 GMT -6
;D ;D ;D
Thanks, Leyton!
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Post by Tricia on Oct 17, 2006 14:49:03 GMT -6
Wasn't Major Tilford normally posted at Fort Rice? If so, this must have been a special day: all in dress uniforms and children present as well. A Sunday, perhaps?
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Post by Diane Merkel on Oct 17, 2006 17:55:26 GMT -6
Speaking of Fort Rice . . . is anyone very familiar with its remains? I recall a cemetery near the entrance of the ruins, but another person remembers it being behind the fort area, up on a hill. That doesn't jive with my memory at all. What we were trying to figure out is where one of Benteen's children was buried, and we think it was there.
Sorry to change the subject so drastically . . . .
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Post by Regular Army-O on Oct 17, 2006 18:03:24 GMT -6
This is the back of the Weir-Nina photo. Thanks Diane. This is great stuff. I was in "mid-sleuth" when I saw your post. Needless to say, with the information you provided the time required for detective work has been reduced significantly. Neat. RAO
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Post by Regular Army-O on Oct 17, 2006 18:22:07 GMT -6
It wasn't a matter of having two different dress unis, but rather something in the developing/chemical process on either the actual glass plate or in the darkroom that caused yellows to look black on photos of the period. Thanks Leyton. I understand the problem you are describing now. I found another photo with a similar background to the one in the Nina-Weir photo....but I'm having digital difficulties at the moment. Maybe information cleaned from the three photos together can help determine when each was taken. If not, I'm very satisfied just knowing who the young lady is in the photo. I want to know more about her life. So now it's back to the archives. Again, thanks for taking a look and your ideas. RAO
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Post by Tricia on Oct 17, 2006 20:13:05 GMT -6
Diane--or anybody else, for that matter--
Or was it Fort Totten? Sorry to drag this thread even farther away from its goal ... I seem to remember Kate Gibson mentioning it and Major Tilford in the same chapter ...
RAO ... n/p! I love digging around in these old photos.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Oct 17, 2006 20:23:28 GMT -6
Nina Tilford Cameron, age 35-40 The January 1990 Research Review has an article about the Tilford family co-authored by James D. Tilford, Jr., Nina's nephew. I just scanned it, but there didn't seem to be a lot about Nina. Tilford does state that Nina was his father's older sister and that she married George Hamilton Cameron. Cameron was born in Illinois and was USMA class of 1883. He retired as a Major General and died in Virginia in 1944 at the age of 83. Nina and George Cameron had three children: Douglas Tilford Cameron (killed in WWI), Margaret Cameron who married Buckner Creel, and Nina Cameron who married Jack Thompson. I hope this gives you a jump-start, Regular Army-O. Diane
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Post by Hostler on Oct 17, 2006 21:27:29 GMT -6
Diane,
O.k. now you've got me going on the Fort Rice question. I did some searching on Google but didn't come up with a whole lot of info on the fort or any pictures. One or two short bios on when the fort was built and abandoned but that's about it. Any suggestions where I might search on the net for pictures or history? Folks on this forum seem to have such great sources for information of this type. I spent about a half day at Fort Abraham Lincoln and the rebuilt Custer house in 1991. I wish I had taken time to stop by Fort Rice, but money was running short.
Thanks, Hostler
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Post by Diane Merkel on Oct 17, 2006 22:38:07 GMT -6
Hostler, If it isn't the money running short, it's the time. There never seems to be enough of either! You may be sorry you asked, but I'll post some photos from our trip to Fort Rice. We attended the LBHA conference at Fort Lincoln in late June/early July 1999 and went south through North and South Dakota because my husband Chuck had never been to Wounded Knee. We almost breezed by Fort Rice and just happened to notice the sign for it. That's me below in the baggy t-shirt and pith helmet. I remember it as a very windy place. As you can see, there isn't much there. Here's part of a sign showing the layout of the fort and its history. The two things on either side of the flag pole are cannon barrels set in stone. There are cornerstones, showing the footprint of the old buildings, but not much else. In my earlier post, I mentioned that someone had said the cemetery was in the back of the fort, up a hill. I must have misunderstood the hill part because there certainly isn't one. Below is a photo of Chuck entering the cemetery that is by the road. All of the stones in that cemetery are 20th century, and we didn't see any names of note. I'm glad we stopped, but I don't think I'd recommend a special trip unless, of course, you know for sure where the old cemetery is. That might be worth the trip. We continued on to Standing Rock and found Sitting Bull's first grave. We then went through the Badlands and to Wall Drug (of course!) before ending up at Wounded Knee. As we stood before the "Massacre" sign, a car pulled up and out popped Louise Barnett ( Touched by Fire). She and her husband were also running around the Dakotas sightseeing. Small world! Diane
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Post by Regular Army-O on Oct 17, 2006 23:49:47 GMT -6
I hope this gives you a jump-start, Regular Army-O. Indeed. I saw Nina's face and knowing now what would happen to her son, I had to re-visit the last lines of Elizabeth Custer's, "Boots and Saddles": "This battle wrecked the lives of twenty-six women at Fort Lincoln, and orphaned children of officers and soldiers joined the cry to that of their bereaved mothers. From that time the life went out of the hearts of the "women who weep," and God asked them to walk on alone and in the shadow." There is none of this gloom in the photo of Nina with Capt. Weir. She has a look on her face of...TOMORROW! LET'S DO IT! And Capt. Weir...well...he looks like he believes her and knows he shouldn't. I think I learned something of real value today and can't describe properly what that is. So all I can manage is--Thanks. She will be remembered. RAO
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Post by Tricia on Oct 18, 2006 8:06:48 GMT -6
Diane--
This is the best description I could find ... and it isn't much. From Fougera, pg. 256:
At the funeral, there was neither service nor clergyman. We walked to the little cemetery on the hill, knelt beside the small grave, and commended the baby's soul to the Father whence it came ...
I thought there were a few more identifying features regarding the graveyard in her narrative, but I'll have to dig more. I was thinking she might have mentioned a specific type of tree near the place the Benteen baby was laid to rest.
--LMC
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Post by rch on Oct 18, 2006 9:09:43 GMT -6
Re: the drapery and the stool
The photo of Lt Hare sent me looking at the backgrounds of other photo's, and there are a few of them that contain at least a similiar curtain or stool.
From "The Custer Album" p. 146 - Tom Custer, Cooke, and their lady friends (curtain). From "Greasy Grass" May 1997 p. 25 - Tthe same group (curtain and stool). From "The Custer Album" p. 171 - Sgt Kanipe (curtain in his hand and stool). From "Custer and His Commands" p. 48 - Capt French (curtain) and p. 71 a group of enlisted men including Trumpeter George Penwell (stool but the design on the curtain can't be seen).
The problem is getting Custer, Kanipe, Cooke, and Hare and Penwell, French, Tilford, and Weir into the same photographer's establishment. For instance, Weir might not have come anywhere near Ft Lincoln or Ft Rice until the Spring of 1875. Hare probably didn't report to the regiment until about the time his company was sent to the South. That would also have been about the time that the Regimental Headquarters was transferred from the St. Paul area to Ft Lincoln, and that would be when Cooke would have first arrived at Ft Lincoln.
It's possible that Weir and Cooke could have gone to Ft Lincoln on official business and that Tilford travelling East from Ft Rice could have stopped there. I think Bismark or Ft Lincoln are the most likely locations for the photographs, but the photographer might have travelled with his own backdrop to Lincoln or Rice. He might even have travelled via the NPRR to Ft. Seward. The 4 day trek from there to Ft Totten and back might not have been all that profitable.
rch
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