chart
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Post by chart on Feb 18, 2017 0:13:14 GMT -6
Again, total agreement! Oh, Bob, it's a shame you missed it. We had a great time. Sunday we went up Reno Creek from the LBH valley and got beyond the morass. Monday, we wandered around the battlefield, picked up the last stray, and met Richard Fox and his brother. Had dinner with them. Tuesday and Wednesday-- with the Fox boys-- we spent up and down Reno Creek, at the the Crow's Nest, all up and down Davis Creek, all around the battlefield and even into the foothills across the valley. Thursday we were back on our own, went to the battlefield again, then onto Sheridan, WY, and Buffalo, WY. (Had a great buffolo steak dinner at the Occidental Hotel and listened to the best-- and only-- live Bluegrass music I've ever heard. Then Friday we spent at Fort Phil Kearny, the Fetterman site, and the Wagon Box Fight site; more of that on Saturday, then back to the LBH. It was a great time and these guys I was with were marvelous. "Bubbabod" and "Treasuredude" were two of them. You have to make the next one with us: 2009. Best wishes, Fred. Which Morass was that Fred? The 1st 2nd 3rd 4th fth?
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chart
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Post by chart on Feb 25, 2017 17:50:46 GMT -6
Benteen had a number of high mucky-mucks as pall bearers for his funeral. He may have felt more comfortable with educated, wealthy people than those he dealt with in the military. I was in the military and you do find a whole range of people from qualified & intelligent to barely conscious and motivated. Sorta like when a great athlete become a coach . . . very difficult to deal with lessers who don't have his ability. Or perhaps he was a professional and didnt like non professionals. Nothing to do about hob nobbing with wealth or educated people, no evidence whatsoever in his behavior. In fact the men thought him brilliant and admired him immensely. Having been in the military you dont have that reaction for officers that are snobs or think they are better than you. It seems to me Benteen got it right about people and stood seeing the likes of Custer and his clan treating the army as its own little party and when displayed contempt for the men as one can judge by Libby books and their sense of superiority . Benteen for years not only with the Elliot Washita matter, didn't like Custers treatment and humiliation of enlisted men, shooting deserters, shaving heads, mock firing squads, putting his dogs in an ambulance and removing men to do it, refusing medical treatment to men injured, his flogging of men when it was illegal, his deserting his post to go see Libby, his causing the death of men like Elliot and Kidder, of leaving behind men when racing of to Libby and leaving them to their deaths. On and on it goes with Custer's behavior and Benteen witnessed it for years. perhaps Benteen, the ultimate professional was sick of Custer's disregard for orders and his continual breaking of them and ignoring then to suit himself, which in turn made Benteen realize he was a very dangerous man to have as a commander especialy in the field and could not be trusted. He was right.. The most poignant thing to me about Benteen and his character and compassion as a human being is in the article he wrote to the newspaper about Washita that started the final feud with Custer. At the end of the article he mentions :poor ponies""that were shot and also about dogs limping of howling at the Indian camp that Custer shot. That shows me a man who has compassion not only for human beings but also animals. Benteen seems to be down to earth and saw Custer and Reno etc for what they were. Incompetent people. Interesting that Benteen never went to WP and maybe that is where the secret lies. maybe he saw all these West Pointers as the snobs and totaly carreer orintated and not very qualified. Keogh was friends with Benteen and Keogh also never went to WP . Would like to see the officers Benteen mixed with quite normally as opposed to those he openly didn't like, and see which went to WP and those that never. Maybe that would explain a lot.
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chart
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Post by chart on Feb 25, 2017 18:01:24 GMT -6
Re: Martin Martin was an orderly trumpeter on 25 Jun. That duty would last until he was releived by the chief trumpeter and replaced by another trumpeter. He would normally be expected to return to the regimental headquarters. Cooke must have expected that Custer's immediate command would soon be engaged and that it might be difficult for Martin to return. rch Reno had applied for command of the 7th when Custer had been in Chicago and told he was not going on the expedition. Reno also took command of the 7th after the battle and had command until the return to Ft Lincoln months later. Custer Reno was given the scout over Custer by Terry and command of Custer's clan companies on that scout. Custer saw Reno as a direct threat to his command and knew when they returned to Ft Lincoln his career was finished and he would not be with the 7th any longer. I believe he left Reno out to dry on purpose. I believe he sent Benteen of and then sent Reno to attack the village knowing that Reno would face overwhelming forces and Reno had no experience whatsoever fighting Indians. In other words he was happy to sacrifice Reno to achieve his goal. I believe it was intentional and he had no intention of supporting Reno, sent Benteen far enough away that he could not support Reno, and stall the support like he did so as to cover his ass if he won the battle and had to explain why Reno was wiped out. The far better choice if Custer was serious, was to send Benteen to attack the village and Reno of on the oblique.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 26, 2017 5:19:20 GMT -6
chart,
You are not the first to express GAC left Reno to fend for himself, as in "They were expendable." The LtC. certainly committed some head scratchers.
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Post by edavids on Mar 3, 2017 10:56:54 GMT -6
Didn't Reno have some experience fighting NA's from his time stationed in the Pacific Northwest. Nothing that would prepare him for anything the magnitude of LBH but I believe it is incorrect to consider Reno an amateur.
Best,
David
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 3, 2017 11:43:51 GMT -6
Yes he did, late 1850's, when he had a rank we do not use any more Brevet 2nd LT.
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Post by edavids on Mar 3, 2017 15:21:34 GMT -6
Thanks Tom. Some in the anti-Reno crowd conveniently forget that he had combat experience during the CW as well. Same is true of Terry who I've seen referred to as The Amateur by some real buffoons.
Best,
David
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Post by dave on Mar 3, 2017 19:23:15 GMT -6
Man what a jewel of thread! I am starting at the beginning and will work through all the pages. Regards Dave
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 4, 2017 5:15:43 GMT -6
Dave,
Markland, Fred and CH display great clarity, early on in dealing with the Clown Prince of Queens. Enjoy the thread.
Regards, Tom
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Post by dave on Mar 5, 2017 11:10:09 GMT -6
Tom You are correct as this has been an informative thread even though Wild may not agree. I wish that I had joined soon enough to have had the chance to see DC's threads and posts. Now I occasionally run across one of his missives and either marvel of laugh till I hurt. His needle was long and accurate.
Is Billy Markland still posting? Regards Dave
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 6, 2017 11:05:58 GMT -6
I have not seen Billy since about 14. Fred may tell you better.
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 6, 2017 11:41:20 GMT -6
Let's get one thing straight . . . Benteen had no idea what was going on once he was given his orders to "scout to the left". He was never told about an attack order for Reno, he was never told about any further division of the command. In fact he was sent at least two messengers to keep going on his "scout". It was only Benteen who decided that he was on a "wild goose chase" and that he was wasting his time and determined it would be best to stop his "scout". Kanipe, who is in the middle of all kinds of controversy as to whether he was a "real" messenger or who decided it would be better to get as far away from Custer and his lunatic (my emphasis) decisions and imply that he was a "actual" messenger and come up with all kinds of reasons for being a messenger can be taken seriously that leads to putting any false blame on Benteen.
If Benteen didn't make the decision to cease his scout and return then Reno would have been wiped out as was Custer. It was Benteen's decision to stop his scout and return. It was then that Kanipe who may or may not have been a "real" messenger who gave glowing reports of an impending victory for Custer that Benteen felt he was on a wild goose chase. Then Martini arrives with a cryptic message and more emphasis on Custer about to ride through the village that Benteen decides he can't do much about the pack train and it would be in the best interest of the command to return as fast as possible. It was up to officers who commanded the pack train to get them in order and to move as fast as possible forward.
Thanks to Benteen, Reno's command was saved. Thanks to Custer and his failure to inform Benteen about what was taking place, Custer was wiped out.
Let's stop with it was Benteen who determined Custer's and the 7th's fate. There is and was only one person who commanded the 7th Cavalry. There is and was only one person who gave orders to the rest of the command for their movements. And in the end there was and is only one person to blame for the debacle and defeat of the 7th Cavalry.
I'll let posters decide who it was!
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Post by fred on Mar 6, 2017 12:38:33 GMT -6
Thanks to Benteen, Reno's command was saved. Thanks to Custer and his failure to inform Benteen about what was taking place, Custer was wiped out. Let's stop with it was Benteen who determined Custer's and the 7th's fate. There is and was only one person who commanded the 7th Cavalry. There is and was only one person who gave orders to the rest of the command for their movements. And in the end there was and is only one person to blame for the debacle and defeat of the 7th Cavalry. I'll let posters decide who it was! As usual, you are right on the money. And as you know, this poster has already decided. Great post, Horse. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 6, 2017 12:42:56 GMT -6
I have not seen Billy since about 14. Fred may tell you better. Tom, I do not know if Billy looks at this site any more, but if he does, he certainly has not posted in ages. He is fairly active on Facebook where he has his own site, the Little Big Horn Discussion Group, and it is a superb site with all sorts of marvelous discussions going on, great posters, and a lot of visuals, i.e., newspaper clippings, photos, maps, etc. When I am not here, I am there... along with a couple others, including my own so-called "author's" page: Frederic C. Wagner III. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by bosshawg on Mar 7, 2017 20:43:12 GMT -6
Hi Fred: I am new to this board. While I have been reading it off and on for a few years, I just joined a few weeks ago. I am way over my head here in LBH knowledge, military experience, etc. it is unlikely I will post very often. Thanks for the heads-up on the Facebook Little Big Horn Discussion Group. I was on there last night and the screen shots someone had put up from Google Earth with the key sites labeled on them helped give me good perspective. About a year ago I read your book and often kept Google Earth open for perspective. In the images I looked at last night I got my first real understanding of the location of the morass. Do you know where I might find a labeled Google Earth image of the location where Benteen was dispatched on his valley hunt? Google Earth gives me a better feel for terrain and distance than other maps and illustrations. Regards, Terry
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