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Post by conz on Nov 14, 2007 10:01:43 GMT -6
I would think that if there was an over-all plan, it would be nice to say something like, "Major Reno, go down there and charge the village. I intend to go along the river to the other end and hit 'em from that side, and Captain Benteen will keep them from escaping up the valley." Or whatever. Micro-managing, to my mind, would be, "Major Reno, go down there and deploy Company A here, G, there, etc." That, of course, would only work if Custer knew what his own squadrons were going to do when he ordered Reno to engage the enemy. I doubt that Custer exactly HOW he would support Reno when Reno went galloping off, so it would be hard to tell him. He might lay out all the different ways that support might come, but Reno was an educated professional and knew all those ways already, and there certainly wasn't time to teach a lesson on common tactics there in the coulee. Now it would be good for Custer to tell Reno how he was doing it once he made his decision for the flank maneuver. But isn't that exactly what Custer did when he waved to Reno from up on the bluff? Custer delivered the message himself, personally, probably faster than any messenger could have got to Reno. The only criticism you can make on Custer's communications here, I think, is that he didn't reinforce his signal with a written message delivered by one of his Troopers. That would be redundant, but if you want to be SURE the message got through, redundant is good. Kinda smacks to me of baby-sitting your subordinates...you do that stuff if you can't trust them to get your signals straight. I guess Reno wasn't as good as Custer gave him credit for? Clair
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 14, 2007 12:40:52 GMT -6
Custer sends two messengers to Benteen during his scout.
Custer sends two messengers to the pack train and Benteen.
Reno sends two messengers to Custer after discovering Indians making a stand rather than running (in addition Girard tells Cooke the same thing)
Custer sends NO messengers (that we know of or can be proven) to Reno.
Is Reno left in the dark or does Custer expect Reno to continue with "bring them to battle" and you are on your own?
Since there was a major shift in what the Indians were thought to be doing (fighting rather than running) shouldn't Custer have responded with a response back to Reno?
Apparently everyone knew what was going on but Reno . . .
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Post by rch on Nov 14, 2007 12:42:41 GMT -6
Re: Martin
Martin was an orderly trumpeter on 25 Jun. That duty would last until he was releived by the chief trumpeter and replaced by another trumpeter. He would normally be expected to return to the regimental headquarters. Cooke must have expected that Custer's immediate command would soon be engaged and that it might be difficult for Martin to return.
rch
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Post by mwkeogh on Nov 14, 2007 19:26:33 GMT -6
Custer sends NO messengers (that we know of or can be proven) to Reno. Does the name Theodore Goldin ring a bell?
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 15, 2007 9:45:01 GMT -6
<Does the name Theodore Goldin ring a bell?>
It does, but a bell with no clapper . . .
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Post by fred on Nov 15, 2007 10:00:27 GMT -6
Does the name Theodore Goldin ring a bell? You know, that's an interesting point. It could have happened, but there is no way I believe that bum Goldin ever got through to Reno. Sklenar's old RR article is still the best I have ever read about this "event." It is certainly a possibility, but Kanipe-- that paragon of veracity-- makes no allusion to it, anywhere (at least that I know of). Of course, maybe that was a trump of Kanipe's exploits, something he wasn't so keen on trumpeting. Of course, if it really did happen, the other big mouth could have made more of it than he did-- oops!, I forgot. He had to wait for Reno to die first. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Scout on Nov 15, 2007 14:54:04 GMT -6
With Kanipe there is a slight chance he was telling the truth, although personally I don't think so. The accounts of his arrival at the pack train, and his action are, well, suspicious. Now Goldin is a different story. I would be willing to bet the farm that his story is complete dung. He strikes me as a sort of slippery fellow. He was recommend in later years as a possible Custer Battlefield Superintendent but old 'God' put the brakes on that, which speaks volumes in my opinion.
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Post by mwkeogh on Nov 15, 2007 19:23:52 GMT -6
With Kanipe there is a slight chance he was telling the truth, although personally I don't think so. The accounts of his arrival at the pack train, and his action are, well, suspicious. Now Goldin is a different story. I would be willing to bet the farm that his story is complete dung. He strikes me as a sort of slippery fellow. He was recommend in later years as a possible Custer Battlefield Superintendent but old 'God' put the brakes on that, which speaks volumes in my opinion. I tend to agree with Fred on his view of Goldin. It is certainly possible that he was sent back as a messenger to Reno, but I do not believe Reno ever got the message. I was intrigued by the story of either Girard or Herendeen (or was it DeRudio?) who claimed that while climbing the slopes to Reno Hill on their escape out of the valley, they came upon a trembling G Co. trooper scared out of his wits hiding in the brush on the hillside. To my mind, this might well be our Pvt. Goldin. On the other hand, I have no problem believing Kanipe's version, especially as he later maintained both his reputation and his sergeant stripes in the post lbh years, thus indicating good standing amongst his peers. Kanipe claimed to have delivered his message to Chief Packer Waggoner, however, I would much rather question the veracity of McDougall who denied receiving any message from Kanipe during the tainted RCOI, yet years later wrote a character recommendation for Kanipe's application as a postal agent wherein he admits receiving his message at the pack train that day. I'm sorry, but he can't have it both ways. I think that Walter Camp was right to accept the statements of the enlisted men and not run with everything the officers testified to at the RCOI.
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Post by fred on Nov 15, 2007 21:33:51 GMT -6
On the other hand, I have no problem believing Kanipe's version, especially as he later maintained both his reputation and his sergeant stripes in the post lbh years, thus indicating good standing amongst his peers.... I would much rather question the veracity of McDougall who denied receiving any message from Kanipe during the tainted RCOI, yet years later wrote a character recommendation for Kanipe's application as a postal agent wherein he admits receiving his message at the pack train that day. Bill-- I don't agree here. Kanipe-- to me-- was a conniver. He seems to have been the type who was a decent soldier, he earned his stripes, but when the chips were needed, old Danny-boy was taking the low road to cover, nowhere to be found. I seriously doubt his "pack train" story-- at least the part where he was "instructed" to go back, and I think as a conniver, he knew darned well he could cover his tracks very easily had either Custer brother survived. The old, "my horse broke down," story is as good as it can get. And Kanipe makes sure he didn't give any names of who told him to deliver that message until after he found out who was dead. This guy seems as slippery as an eel and appears to me to be a real opportunist. I just cannot account for the absolute love affair everyone has with Daniel Kanipe. And I still cannot buy the argument that Tom or George sent a sergeant from C Company-- so short of sergeants-- with a mere, "tell the packs to hurry," message. C'mon ladies and gentlemen. That was a Martini job, not the job of a supposed hot-dog sergeant. I also think that by the time McDougall wrote the letter, "blood" had become a lot thicker than water, and the LBH/Seventh Cav guys were sticking together, doing whatever they could for one another. I might think that by that time, with all that notoriety, these guys had developed quite a bond. I wonder if McDougall even remembered the Kanipe story by that time and if he did, so what, give the guy a break; he's Seventh Cav. Hell, I'd do it today, even for my biggest shirker. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by gocav76 on Nov 15, 2007 23:25:30 GMT -6
Fred, I have doubts about Sgt Daniel Kanipe too! I was reading some of his statements and certain things seem kinda strange to me--for instance he claims he delivered the orders to Benteen.----Delivering his message - "They want you up there as quick as you can get there - they have struck a big Indian camp." - at approx. 3:42, he rode on with a shout of, "We've got them, boys!" Now what Sgt. goes up to a Captain (in the old Army) and says "They want you"-'They have struck" If he was passing along orders he should have advised Benteen of who "they" were! Next is his statement about Capt T.Custer(who he claims he was riding beside) giving him the verbal orders --" Just then the captain told me to go back and find McDougall and the pack train and deliver to them orders that had just been issued by General Custer"-but at the same breath he says --"I remember the last words that I heard General Custer say; the men were on the hill, we all gave them three cheers riding at a full gallop, some of them couldn't hold their horses, galloping past General Custer. He shouted at them, "Boys, hold your horses, there are plenty of them down there for us all." Now if they were at a full gallop,and he was next to Capt T.Custer-how could "orders that had just been issued by General Custer" have taken place? If General Custer was with Tom Custer, I would imagine the last words he heard was the General giving the orders.
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Post by Montana Bab on Nov 15, 2007 23:44:24 GMT -6
[Does the name Theodore Goldin ring a bell? Funny you should mention this name. I have been reading the Benteen-Goldin letters (those included in "Custer's Myth") and have been wondering what the connection was between the two. It says that Goldin wrote to Benteen first between 1876-77 and they continued to correspond for five years. Sadly, the Goldin letters have not been found, only Benteen's side of the correspondance exists. I just thought this was an odd pairing, these two. But I was mostly interested in the fact that Benteen actually encouraged Goldin to write his 'manuscripts' for the "Army Magazine", which were partially published in 1894, and several articles followed later. These also, have never been found. It seems that Benteen was the source of information for these articles. At one point Benteen wrote: " ....I shall be pleased to see your account in print. However it is the replies to same from which I expect the greatest source of amusement." (Custer's Myth, pg. 196) I have read accounts of Goldin being a person not to be believed so I thought it very odd that Benteen would humor him in his endeavor to write about LBH. Strange....
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Post by Dark Cloud on Nov 16, 2007 8:20:58 GMT -6
The first sentence addressing the letters says Goldin first began writing in 1891, LONG after the events and when Benteen was in Atlanta. Not 1876.
Goldin was a big wig in Wisconsin Republican politics, which is likely all Benteen knew about him. Goldin HAD been in the 7th and at the battle, and Benteen replied as he would to anyone, I suspect. That Goldin was a liar and a self promoting thug wouldn't have been known to Benteen, and Goldin's attempt to use Benteen to prop his successful bid for a CMOH are pretty disgusting. That said, I have small doubt that he hoped Goldin would support him and damn the Custerphiles, but Benteen didn't make up stuff to give him. Over a century of dedicated work to make Benteen a liar has failed.
The Graham book itself demonstrates Goldin's quality.
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Post by fred on Nov 16, 2007 8:53:55 GMT -6
Goldin was a big wig in Wisconsin Republican politics, which is likely all Benteen knew about him. Goldin HAD been in the 7th and at the battle, and Benteen replied as he would to anyone, I suspect. That Goldin was a liar and a self promoting thug wouldn't have been known to Benteen, and Goldin's attempt to use Benteen to prop his successful bid for a CMOH are pretty disgusting. That said, I have small doubt that he hoped Goldin would support him and damn the Custerphiles, but Benteen didn't make up stuff to give him. Over a century of dedicated work to make Benteen a liar has failed. Boy, oh boy, do you have that aced!Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Nov 17, 2007 16:52:58 GMT -6
lc, we appear to have forgotten our customary welcome to newcomers in your case, so may I rectify that and extend that courtesy to you. Your post has caused you to be put through the wringer because it unfortunately touched some raw nerves, but I hope that will not deter you and that your first post will not be your last.
Regards.
"Hunk" papa
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chart
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by chart on Feb 17, 2017 23:33:16 GMT -6
I wont respond to your rant which is purely speculative, and , in my humble opinion, wrong in many ways. I will however point out that you should perhaps look up PTSD and detachment. It was not in the least unusual for a sufferer to detach from a trauma especially one caused in battle. 2. Benteen was in command. He was in command of his own companies and when 1st linking with Reno he subordinated to Reno as his commanding officer, stopping when ordered to do so by Reno. In the following hours when it became apparent Reno had lost it, yes Benteen took command much to the relief of officers and men who all made statements and gave evidence. They kept that opinion for the rest of their lives including Lt Godfrey who went on to be a general. Reno acquiesced to Benteen taking command. 3. Discussing who would be in command and who would be promoted seems to be entirely logical, considering the detachment by PTSD as well as the survival of the unit. Benteen was aware they were not being "choppered"out the next day back to camp. He knew the war continued and they would be on the trail of the Indians which they were for many weeks after. So it makes sense that in a letter to his wife, something no doubt he was able to voice his thoughts, that he would muse of his future, of the remaining officers and himself and who would take the place of who had died. As to Gibbon and Terry? Well Benteen was again proved correct in his estimation. He had warned Custer not to divide his forces and was ignored. Gibbon and Terry were less than 40 miles away and its my understanding that Custer's actual orders was to take 2 scouts from Terrys command, one of them Heredeen, and to scout Tullocks and then send Heredeen back to report. Custer ignored that order and as a result Terry and Gibbon when attempting to cross the area , were pretty well lost as they had no scout and lost valuable time. If heredeen had of returned he could have guided them and they would have arrived at the LBH on the 25th. So Benteen was correct and if Custer had of obeyed the order than it would have been a totally different outcome. But Custer knew that and for that reason did not want Terry or Gibbons there as they would assume command. Th note? Well he was right about the note wasn't he. It did become of interest and I have no doubt that when Benteen received the note and a short time later Reno told him to hold with him, Benteen knew he would be breaking an order from Custer. So at the time, and remember Benteen did not have any inkling that Custer would be wiped out, Benteen put the note in his pocket knowing that it would be very important as to why he did not take the packs to Custer. So yes to tell his wife after Custer ahd been killed that he was keeping that note as it may have interest was exactly right. It was his Cover His Butt note and any person let alone an officer would have made damn sure to hang on to it so he could show why he ignored an order and what Custer had actually said to do. Im not interested in an argument or debate with you BUT. To bring up 911 is disgusting. 2500 were killed. To use an analogy of LBH and 911 simply to support an attack on Benteen based on your opinion, to me is obscene.
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