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Post by Montana Bab on Nov 8, 2007 15:22:56 GMT -6
Far as I know, Montana, none of my posts were moved. I started a new thread there, is all. Sorry, Darkcloud, my mistake.... Montana
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Post by fred on Nov 8, 2007 15:57:44 GMT -6
Thanks, Darkcloud.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Nov 8, 2007 16:43:37 GMT -6
Hah! You fell for it! I WiN, I WIN, I.......(chirp.....chirp)....win. (chirp...croak)
Anyway, here Tuesdays through Sunday, Matinee Sunday, bring the family, drive careful, you're great human beings........Hit it, Sammy! Big finish! "To dream the impossible..................DREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sam Snell and His Band from Hell, Ladies and Gentlemen! Good night! God bless....... Thank you.......really......
Too much.............Thank you.........
See? We can end it here with Grace and Class(TM). My trademark. No, seriously, it is.
Because I won. Finally.
Okay, if you insist, one more! Cue, Sammy!
"I'm Mr. Wonderful........they say to me! I'm Mr. Wonderful......
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Post by fred on Nov 8, 2007 18:28:17 GMT -6
Hey... er... Boulder Bluster, is that directed at me? Because if it is, it went right over my head. You'll have to be less obtuse than usual.
[Please disregard the above if that was not for me.]
Best wishes, Vanquished [?]
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Post by erkki on Nov 9, 2007 9:40:23 GMT -6
It tends to bother me when people have to try to find scapegoats in their efforts to make a martyr of Custer. Custer took risks and was well aware of them in advance. He led from the front. He was an excellent small unit leader but a poor regimental commander. A regimental commander should find a location where he can observe and direct his battalions and/or companies. Custer failed to do so. He was so busy trying to be a battalion commander that he failed to properly perform the duties of the regimental commander. Had he placed himself and one company in the vicinty of Weir Point or some other high ground he could have directed both Reno's and Keogh's battalions and moved Benteen where he needed him when he arrived. The mission failed because he failed at his job. That does not mean he wasn't courageous or heroic. He certainly was. This is one of the finest analyses of Custer I have run across. It ranks with Utley's statement that Custer was probably everything anybody ever said about him--and something more. [At least I think it was Utley.] Gumby's analysis goes back to something Frost pointed out. Custer went from 2LT to full general in 2 years, 8 days flat and was strongly resented by the officers over whom he had been promoted. So he learned to trust his own counsel and to distrust his subordinates, who probably were in those early days out to get him. "He was a daredevil. He wouldn’t send a man where he wouldn’t go. But most of the men didn’t like him. He was too hard on men and horses. He changed his mind too often. He was always right. He never conferred enough with his officers. When he got a notion, we had to go. He wouldn’t listen to the other officers."--Jacob Horner "I heard Captain Weir ask Captain Moylan, when he was adjutant, whether General Custer ever gave him any particular orders about doing anything. Whether we were to go here or there. Captain Moylan said "no," that when he was adjutant General Custer never told him what he was going to do, he would order him to tell the company commanders to go to such and such a place and that was all."--SGT Culbertson "The general planned every military action with so much secrecy that we were left to divine as best we could what certain preliminary movements meant." --Libbie Well, it's all right to keep your wife in the dark, but not your officers. A salient example lies in the ordering of the Arikara to capture horses without informing Varnum or Hare. No "Custer would have, could have, must have" here. They had no idea that the Arikara were told to capture ponies and take off. A worse consequence of this rapid promotion was that Custer never had a chance to learn the lessons of command by going through the ranks, as is evident in his disciplinary actions--and in what I perceive as the extremely foolish restoration of a noncom's stripes and the undermining of Benteen's role in the regiment. The antagonisim between them is irrelevant. That action was fundamentally disruptive to organizational disciplne. In the final analysis, Custer is far more interesting as a study in management than as hero or martyr. The horses were beautifully trained (for parade), but regimental discipline left much to be desired. He had all the makings of a fine officer--but the army uses men, and it certainly used him.
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Post by conz on Nov 9, 2007 13:43:03 GMT -6
Gentlemen,
Balance this perspective with Army command principles that say you should give as few orders as possible, and keep your instructions to a minimum.
Give your subordinates the bare minimum that they need for what they are to accomplish, but don't tell them how to do it or micro-manage them.
FORCE your subordinates to make up their own orders, conforming to the commander's "intent," but in their own way and judgment.
Officers are expected to know what to do, and how best to do it, without being told very much. Giving too much by way of orders is seen as an improper command style in a fast-moving army.
Clair
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Post by alfuso on Nov 10, 2007 9:48:40 GMT -6
conz
that works even in my daily job. I know how to do my job. Give me the instructions necessary and I will get the job done.
alfuso
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Post by Melani on Nov 11, 2007 23:52:00 GMT -6
I would think that if there was an over-all plan, it would be nice to say something like, "Major Reno, go down there and charge the village. I intend to go along the river to the other end and hit 'em from that side, and Captain Benteen will keep them from escaping up the valley." Or whatever. Micro-managing, to my mind, would be, "Major Reno, go down there and deploy Company A here, G, there, etc."
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Post by fred on Nov 12, 2007 6:23:06 GMT -6
Agreed.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Gumby
Full Member
Posts: 202
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Post by Gumby on Nov 12, 2007 12:01:06 GMT -6
Simple is one thing. Virtually non-existant another. Conflicting orders still another. Come on, be quick.- Come where? Bring packs.- I thought you wanted me to be quick. P.S. Bring Packs.- I guess the packs are more important than being quick.
There is no justification for assuming Custer only meant the ammo packs. Not from what Benteen could have known at the time or even from hindsight. The heavier ammo packs would not have been any faster than the others and from hindsight we know that Custer's two bttns had not even fired a shot prior to him sending for the packs.
Custer's lack of specificity in his orders helped to insure his defeat. If Custer planned for Benteen to attack at MTC, as I suspect, then he should have sent a courier with those instructions. Someone with intellect enough to guide Benteen to the location. Martin sure wasn't the man for the job. Why Kanipe didn't lead Mathey and the packs across country to Custer is still a mystery to me. (Not that it would have done anyone but the Sioux and Cheyenne any good) He didn't need to micro-manage but management was certainly needed! He had Captains to lead bttns and companies. Custer was the "Regimental Commander" on that battlefield and he should have done that job. By staying with Yates and Keogh he in effect micro-managed them.
I don't agree with the statement that Custer did not support Reno. Evidence exists that he did. However, it was too late in stopping Reno from making his disasterous retreat from the timber. Evidence exists that Custer had his remaining trumpeters blowing their trumpets in MTC during the skirmishing there. This was undoubtedly in order to pull warriors off of Reno's bttn since Custer never made a legitimate effort to cross the ford there.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Nov 12, 2007 13:56:50 GMT -6
All this to Custeriana and Benteen thread........
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Post by fred on Nov 12, 2007 15:13:55 GMT -6
Why Kanipe didn't lead Mathey and the packs across country to Custer is still a mystery to me. I don't agree with the statement that Custer did not support Reno. Evidence exists that he did. However, it was too late in stopping Reno from making his disasterous retreat from the timber. Evidence exists that Custer had his remaining trumpeters blowing their trumpets in MTC during the skirmishing there. This was undoubtedly in order to pull warriors off of Reno's bttn since Custer never made a legitimate effort to cross the ford there. This is one of the reasons why I do not believe Kanipe was "sent" back, but went back of his own accord, rather nervous, and wanting to be someplace other than the "battlefield." While I have never heard of trumpets blown in MTC (I have in the Last Stand Hill area), I agree with your assessment of Custer not making "a legitimate effort to cross" Ford B. I do not believe Custer knew of Reno's retreat. I believe he saw Reno move to the timber, but not out of it again, and I think Boyer was already too far downstream to have seen Reno retreat. Best wishes, Fred.
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Gumby
Full Member
Posts: 202
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Post by Gumby on Nov 13, 2007 13:08:52 GMT -6
I still believe Knipe was sent back but failed to relay all of the information he was meant to. It might have been hard for a sergeant to explain his absence later if the battle had not been a disaster. A private is less missed.
I don't think Custer knew about Reno's "run for your lives" retreat from the timber. I think Bouyer told Custer that Reno was forced into the timber and was being surrounded. That might have led to the trumpet calls.
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 14, 2007 8:44:51 GMT -6
Cooke felt Martini was important enough to tell him to return if the coast was clear.
Kanipe, however, never said anything about being told to report back to Custer.
Would a private be more important to Custer's command than an experienced NCO?
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Post by fred on Nov 14, 2007 9:03:11 GMT -6
Cooke felt Martini was important enough to tell him to return if the coast was clear. Kanipe, however, never said anything about being told to report back to Custer. Would a private be more important to Custer's command than an experienced NCO? Ah-h-h-h!...
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