|
Post by herosrest on Nov 14, 2015 20:41:10 GMT -6
Ducemuscdm15330.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll21/id/9451View of gravestones at Little Bighorn Battlefield in Montana. Trees are in the distance near the Little Bighorn River and buildings. Gravestones are on Last Stand Hill and on a distant hill at National Cemetery Military Reservation. Buildings are near a flagpole.
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Dec 8, 2015 5:50:53 GMT -6
Nothing earthshattering but several piceces I have read state that before Custer went int MTC, he sent out an advance party of 1 sergeant and 5 enlisted men. They rode well to the east of Luce and Nye/Cartwright Ridge and appears, joined the right wing on Calhoun Hill. Another interesting bit of info is that Michael Moore, around 1985 or so, found indirect evidence for six marble markers that were once located at the visitor center site, but were allegedly removed before construction of that facility in the 1950's. Anybody know if this was verified? This supposedly was found in the Custer Battlefield National Monument Archives. Six markers would add more substance to the stories of E company's skirmish here and losing some of their horses to the suicide boys at that site before rejoining the left wing in the basin. PJS Ducemus
The discussion broadly concluded that the six markers issue was forlorn, although it quite possibly still haunts enterprising dark corners of romantic minds. Thus, in tribute to those who can never say die, behold. I think there were a few more than six!
I've been looking at these things for ages.............. what are they?That is the beginning of the national cemetery, the stone house, and maintenance bldg.
|
|
|
Post by callmeconrad on Dec 9, 2015 6:32:32 GMT -6
I think HR means to the right of the house; the 16 small objects with one large obelisk-type thing in the middle.
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Dec 10, 2015 5:34:34 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by callmeconrad on Dec 10, 2015 8:29:02 GMT -6
Thanks Tom! I'm guessing this is the particular obelisk in question, and I see there's eight older-looking markers to the right: 1.bp.blogspot.com/-Ni1tDiR1TDs/UQXUWXJH8PI/AAAAAAAANds/neywKmZncYY/s1600/P1010767.JPGWhat's interesting is they must have been moved at some point, they're now aligned differently and much farther away from the house. I've highlighted what I think is the group in question: There you go HR, mystery solved!!! Cheers, conrad
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jan 22, 2016 11:54:53 GMT -6
DucemusThank you, Gentlemen. Maybe it was the Stonehouse, which moved. The obelisque is a marker, or tribute? The Jackson image gives two obeliques, without sufficient detail for comparison. Amazing luminosity from the marble.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jan 22, 2016 13:04:16 GMT -6
DucemusThank you, Gentlemen. Maybe it was the Stonehouse, which moved. The obelisque is a marker, or tribute? The Jackson image gives two obeliques, without sufficient detail for comparison. Amazing luminosity from the marble. It's the memorial marker for Fort C.F. Smith, erected in 1892. link
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 28, 2016 15:46:33 GMT -6
Fort Custer National Cemetery is a United States National Cemetery located just outside the village of Augusta in Kalamazoo County, Michigan. It encompasses 770.4 acres (311.8 ha), and as of 2014 had 30,000 interments.
Custer National Cemetery, on the battlefield, is part of the national monument.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Feb 17, 2019 20:21:33 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Feb 20, 2019 8:35:13 GMT -6
Which problem where, how and why? All the best, noggy
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Feb 21, 2019 12:30:34 GMT -6
This topic (long may it live) is/has been one of the battle's wonderful whatif's and 'if only's' which just sits bubbling away waiting to erupt into life again when it suits someone to argue that six markers stood near the old stomne house once upon a time. It has comments from serious battle students of Montana. There were never six battle related markers there. There are hundreds of markers there now and for a very long time but entirely unrelated to 1876. This is a wonderful topic to pick into for the obscurity and oblique nature of its irrelevance to anything other than modern theories being hung upon fantasy. Jason Pitsch had six wooden crosses up against a wall in the LBH valley. There is an unpublished account of the battle by Peter Thompson which may have a bearing upon his spotting Custer at the river. It was from Thompson that we accept that Custer sent videttes ahead of his advance. If the companies went to Ford D then the videttes went to Ford D. The six wooden markers in the valley may therefore somehow be related to the scouts Custer sent ahead to Ford D. Evidence exists for four cavalry weapons being fired on the BRE (Battle Ridge Extension) and therefore the Custer command were there. Gibbon located Kellogg's remains and they must have been along the route of march to and from Ford D - musn't they. The incredible world of Little Bighorn, NPS summer season historians and Jason and Marcus Reno Pitsch. I bumped into an old newspaper article of 1939 which raves on a bit about Kuhlman's new theories about what happened which he based upon the positions of the markers and it becomes incredibly detailed and quite fascinating. He was a rationionalist and, in preparing his 'Legend into History' treatise was entirely unaware of O.J. Sweet's report and justification of the setting of the markers as they were set. I am now at the phase of the history, of the history, of the history of the history of the history of the Little Bighorn and find myself wondering if Custer actually survived the fighting of the 25th June, and was killed by those who went out from Reno Hill looking for him, on the 27th. There is evidence to support his death on the 27th rather than 25th since the head would was still oozing blood. A murder mystery.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on May 26, 2019 12:49:45 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Jun 9, 2019 6:02:47 GMT -6
Interestingly trooper graves/markers have been moved over the years. Fred may tell us about the few that were located where the visit center is now located(I think 5). Kellogg was originally located down by the old park road/entrance. Supposedly there we a couple located where the Trading Post now stands. And, even a body found down on Custer Creek north of the Trading Post. A picture exists of the old Kellogg exists.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jun 18, 2019 9:28:32 GMT -6
The markers which supposedly stood at the stone house are the interesting topic of this topic with it having been wondered if they were possibly an advance detail (videttes). It's nice idea which is impossible to corroborate. What is known is that no markers were set in the area of the stone house in 1890 when Capt. Sweet had them placed. His mission report is here. A few months later, R.B. Mitchell surveyed the markers and produced a map which is one of the battle's icons. As far as we know he plotted all the markers which sweet placed. There most certainly were not 5 or 6 in the later stone house locale and absolutely nothing to indicate the supposed Kellogg satellite marker where Gibbon is supposed to have gone and discovered remains identified by a shoe. Marshall's map & survey.Sweet erected 248 markers, 2 on the Reno field and 246 over the Battle Ridge terrain. I quote Sweet, dated May 15th 1890; ' The nearest grave to the monument on this (east) slope and on the flank of Troop C is that of Mark Kellogg, the New York Herald correspondent'. A news article of the Bismarck Tribune, quoting Charles Kuhlman gives the following - ' All this time White Bull was between the river and the soldiers on the hill. The few remaining troopers seemed to despair of holding their position on the hilltop. Ten of them jumped up and came down the ravine toward White Bull, shooting all the time. Two soldiers were in the lead, one of them wounded and bleeding from the mouth. White Bull and a Cheyenne waited for them. When they came near he shot one; the Cheyenne shot the other . . . The remaining soldiers kept on coming, forcing White Bull out of the ravine onto the ridge. White Bull snatched up the soldier's gun and started up the hill. Suddenly he stumbled and fell." He had been hit on the ankle by a spent ball and was out of the fight.
This ravine is quite obviously the one by which Gibbon and his party came to Custer Hill and in which they found the body of Mark Kellogg, and a little farther on where the "open grassy valley" narrows and takes on the character of a ravine, the body of a trooper, both overlooked by the burial squads of the day before because they had not gone this far out from the skirmish line. Are the bones of these two still lying here partly covered by drift and the thick covering of grass? No one seems to know. The marker for Kellogg now stands in the group of three nearest to Custer Hill on the northeast.' Thus, there were either two markers for Kellogg or BS. Kuhlman (bless him) never saw Sweet's report but corroborates the LSh marker in place in 1930. The stone house was built 1894. The news article is HERE (by subscription) and is a real find and great read. Kuhlman was nuts and out for the next great thing and he got roped in over his head. Good book though with a pinch of salt and seriously wooley. Here's the book.Considerable research has revealed that there were in fact five wooden markers on the Pitsch ranch in the Little Bighorn valley which were moved and then discarded. Thus it seems that five markers were moved when the Marcus A. Reno Museum was set up and this has been confused with the markers on Battle Ridge and National Cemetery house. I have some more on this which I'm not ready to give yet but BS factor for markers at the old stone house is almost 100%.
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Dec 30, 2019 14:30:29 GMT -6
Coming back to this thread, which is something I find interesting (even though markers aren`t needed to make it plausible to me that soldiers fell on CR), what do we really have for proof about this? I`m writing something about the battle and historical sources, and digging a little more about the six markers doesn`t quite satisfy me. I remember stories about old pictures which I have not seen, but all in all writers` phrasings like "indirect evidence" and "allegedly" doesn`t win me over. I guess what I`m asking for in short, is whether there is solid evidence of the markers being on Cemetery Ridge? I know, herroesrest All the best, Noggy
|
|