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Post by elisabeth on Nov 6, 2007 10:18:37 GMT -6
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 6, 2007 11:29:55 GMT -6
Wasn't that article in THE CUSTER MYTH?
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Post by bc on Nov 6, 2007 11:30:19 GMT -6
Hi, this may be a good time to write my first post. I have been more in the reading mode as opposed to the writing mode since I'm not sure I have any new facts but only analysis, opinion, and conjecture regarding the reported facts and writings. I find this letter as a good source of intel for what it is worth.
His letter does not specify a specific ford used by Custer but discusses the movement to the north end of the camp which seems to imply ford 4. The MTC ford was about mid camp. I still researching the ford 4 crossing as a possible alternative. However, can anyone enlighten me as to any archeology, artifacts, or Indian writings that would suggest a short battle was fought at and after crossing ford 4 and then a running retreat was made to last stand hill? A fighting retreat would leave all sorts of artifacts, bullets, bodies, horses, etc. north of last stand hill. This is more consistent with the MTC ford.
Also, is anyone aware of a small number of cavalry who were later found dead anywhere away from from the main battle sites? Although I can't rule out that somewhere in all those draws and coulees in Eastern Montana, there could be some undiscovered location where some cavalry died and the coyotes ate about everything but some artifacts to be discovered.
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Post by elisabeth on Nov 6, 2007 12:10:07 GMT -6
crzhrs, you could be right. If so, my apologies for repetition. I can only plead in my defence that things come across differently when you read them in a different format -- as with some of the stories on that Astonisher site. One thinks one knows them, but even so, different things jump out ...
bc, welcome. It is a puzzle, as many people before us have found. Benteen drew a map for his wife shortly after he battle in which he showed a bunch of bodies -- 28 is I think the number he gives, but the book's packed away at present while work happens on my house, so I can't be sure -- in a ravine north of LSH. Although the figure's similar to that given for Deep Ravine, he can't be confusing it with that, as he also shows that and its bodies on his map. Not sure what other sources there may be for anything similar; I know there are some that claim one or two bodies in that area. Have not heard of reports of more.
Re bodies well away from the main battle area: yes, you're right, there are several Indian accounts of a bunch of cavalry getting away and being killed at quite a distance from the field. There's the fabled Nathan Short, of course (evidence dodgy), and another individual who could just possibly have been the deserter Adams. But the reburial party under Mike Sheridan in 1877 did a sweep of at least a ten-mile radius without finding any indication of anyone who'd got significantly far. They were particularly keen on finding any sign of the missing officers, Sturgis, Porter, and Harrington, all of whose relatives were desperate for news, so one has to imagine they took their job seriously -- but nothing. So it seems unlikely. But even so, hard to be sure.
The big argument against it is that the numbers for the buried dead seem to tally pretty closely with those known to be with the Custer command.
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 6, 2007 12:13:33 GMT -6
Elisabeth:
Some of the astonisher accounts are from THE CUSTER MYTH . . . no problem with that . . . but you are correct in the formatting of a book and on the Internet. I still like a book over the Internet. But the 'Net does provide instant access . . . especially if you don't have your reference books on hand.
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Post by bc on Nov 6, 2007 16:46:44 GMT -6
I've been to the battlefield a few times, so if 28 bodies were found north of LSH, why are there no markers there? To me that present a whole new dynamic as to what happened. Was the 28 bodies part of the getaway group or was it part of the ford 4 crossing and retreat with maybe the deep ravine troops as the alleged getaway group although accounts I have read suggest E troop charged down there from LSH?
I aware of the sprinkling accounts of one or two at a time running from the main group and getting caught and killed, the alleged survivor, the horse and saddle at the yellowstone river, etc. but this getaway group seems to be different.
For discussion sake, I will post the letter here for everyone to follow:
Letter from Captain John S. Poland to the Assistant Adjutant General of the Department of Dakota in Saint Paul, Minnesota, which gives an account from seven Sioux Indians of Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer's defeat at the Battle of the Little Bighorn on June 25, 1876.
Headquarters USA Military Station
Landing Rock Dakota Territory July 24, 1876
To the Assistant Adjutant General
Department of Dakota
Saint Paul Minnesota
Sir
I respectfully report the following as having been derived from seven Sioux Indians just returned from the hostile camp (July 21st) some of whom were engaged in the battle of June 25th with the Seventh cavalry.
The agent of course makes no distinction between them and the other Indians at the agency. He sent them word to keep quiet and say nothing. To the other Indians he sent or delivered personally the instruction that they must not tell the military of the return of Indians from the hostile camp, nor circulate reports of the operations in the late fight.
The Indian account follows: The hostile were celebrating their greatest of religious festivals – the Sun dance – when rumors brought news of the approach of cavalry. The dance was suspended and a general rush, mistaken by Custer, perhaps, for a retreat – for horses equipment and arrows followed. Major Reno first attacked the village at the south end and across the Little BigHorn. Their narrative of Reno’s operations coincide with the published accounts how his men were quickly confronted, surrounded, how he dismounted, rallied on the timber, remounted and cut his way back over the ford and up the bluffs suffering considerable loss, and the continuation of the fight for some little time, when runners arrived from the north of the village, or camp with the news that the cavalry had attacked the north end of the river, three or four miles distance.
The Indians about Reno had not before this shown the slightest integration of fighting at any other point. A force large enough to prevent Reno from assuming the offensive was left and the remaining available force flew to the other end of the camp where finding the Indians there successfully driving Custer before them, instead of uniting with them they separated into ten parties and moved around the flanks of his cavalry. They report that he crossed the river but only succeeded in reaching the edge of the Indian camp. After he was driven to the bluffs the fight lasted perhaps an hour. Indians have no hours of the day, and the time cannot be given approximately.
They report that a small number of cavalry broke through the line of Indians in their rear escaped, but was overtaken, within a distance of five or six miles and killed. I infer from this that this body of retreating cavalry was probably led by the missing officers and that they tried to escape only after Custer fell.
The last man that was killed by two sons of a Santee Indian "Red Top" whom was a leader in the Minnesota massacre of ’62 and ‘63.
After the battle the squaws entered the field to plunder and mutilate the dead.
A general rejoicing was indulged in and a distribution of arms and ammunition hurriedly made. Then the attack on Major Reno was vigorously renewed.
Up to this attack the Indians had lost comparatively few men, but now they say their most serious loss took place. They give no ideal of numbers but say there was a great great many. Sitting Bull was neither killed nor personally engaged in the fight. He remained in the counsel tent directing operations. Crazy Horse (with a large band) and Black Moon were the principal leaders on the 20th June. Kill Eagle, Chief of the Blackfeet at the head of some twenty lodges left the agency about the last of May. He was prominently engaged in the battle of June 25 and afterwards upbraided Sitting Bull for not taking an active personal part in the engagement. Kill Eagle has sent me word that he was forced into this fight, that he desires to return to the agency and that he will return to the agency if he is killed fir it. He is reported actually on the way back to get his father. The agent and make confession to receive absolution for his defiant actions against the hand that has gratuitously fed him for three years. He is truly a shrewd chief, who must have discovered that he who fights and runs away may live to fight another day.
The Indians were not all engaged at one time, he says reserves were held to replace loses and renew attacks unsuccessfully. The fight continued until the end of day when runners, kept on the look out for other units reported a great body of troops (General Terry’s column) advancing up the river.
Lodges having been previously prepared for a move retreated in a southerly direction followed towards and along the base of the mountains. They marched about fifty miles, went into camp and held a consultation where it was determined to send to all the agencies reports of this success and to call upon them to come out and share the glories that were expected in the future. Therefore we may expect an influx of overbearing and imprudent Indians to wage by force perhaps, a succession to Sitting Bulls demands.
There is a general gathering in the hostels camp from each of the agencies on the Missouri River, Red Cloud and Spotted Tails, as also a great many northern Cheyenne and Arapahos.
They report for the benefit of their relatives here that in the three (3) fights they have had with the whites they have captured over 400 stand of arms, carbines and rifles (revolvers not counted) and ammunition without end, sugar, coffee, bacon. And hard bread. They claim to have captured from the whites this summer, over 900 horses and mules. I suppose this includes operations against soldiers, crow Indians and Black Hills miners.
The general outline of this Indian report coincides with the published reports. The first attack of Reno began well on the day say the Indians. They report about 300 whites killed. They do not say how many Indians killed.
A report from another source says the Indians obtained from Custer’s command 592 carbines and revolvers.
I have since writing the above heard the following from the returned hostile. They communicated as a secret to their friends here the information that a large party of Sioux and Cheyenne were to leave Rosebud reservation, or the hostile camp for this agency, to intimidate and compel the Indians here to join Sitting Bull and if they refused, they are ordered kill soldiers there and steal there ponies. Of course any attempts by the military or whites will provoke an attack upon the post, although that secret, or so much of it has not been revealed to friends of the hostile.
I shall report any additional news received from reliable Indian sources as soon as obtained.
Very respectfully
Your obedient servant
J. L. Poland
Captain 6th Infantry
Brevt. Lieut. Col. USA
Commanding
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Post by harpskiddie on Nov 6, 2007 18:39:22 GMT -6
The Poland letter is from Standing Rock and IS in The Custer Myth, as is also the account of Kill Eagle which was a supplement or companion piece to the letter/report. There area couple of errors in the transcription on Astonisher.
For bc: - There IS artifactual evidence of fighting north of Custer Hill, as well as anecdotal evidence, of same. The Cheyennes have maintained for over a hundred years that an attempt was made to cross at Ford D, and repulsed there. I have recently been allowed to read and comment upon Minnecoujou family histories which also make that claim, as well as stating the warrior casualties that occurred during that fighting. One of the problems with artifacts is that the cemetery has been created in the area.
Benteen's map mentions 30 bodies in a "Ravine off here which were not found or buried." As Elsabeth said, he also has the 28 bodies in a deep ravine, belonging, he notes, to E Company, so the 30 are additional to those 28. He does, however, show a total of 303 bodies "on this field alone" which is considerably in excess of Custer's command, and indeed of all dead of the regiment. However, the map was hastily drawn shortly after the fights, and Benteen can be forgiven for making the odd error.
His map also shows the camps extending to north of the Deep Ravine Ford, which is commonly referred to as Ford M3A** As a matter of interest, or not, the Minnicoujou accounts also mention this as fact [there is no map], and state that troops descended to the river and fired into the camps, and were then repulsed, withdrawing slowly and running into more opposition which prevented their moving much beyond Custer Hill, except to the south.
There are other maps, from both white and Indian sources which show the camps strung out north of Deep Coulee Ford, which is sometimes called Ford XYZ^
I once believed, along with most everybody else, that the camps moved north after the first day's fighting to get away from the stench of the bodies, and to honor the warrior dead. I no longer believe that. I think they might have moved slightly to the west. The accepted physical layout of the camps has never made much sense to me. I am being forced by the evidence I've seen to rethink what I used to believe in respect of the movements, size, and arrangement of the camps.
That's one of the main problems with studying these fights, if one comes to the study with an open mind - you constantly are being forced to rethink events and interpretations of actions as you come across new evidence. And believe me, there IS new evidence surfacing from time to time. Not always earthshaking, to be sure, but............
As to markers - don't get me started on those. Welcome to the boards, bc. Don't be a stranger.
Gordie
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Post by clw on Nov 15, 2007 8:07:41 GMT -6
The accepted physical layout of the camps has never made much sense to me. I am being forced by the evidence I've seen to rethink what I used to believe in respect of the movements, size, and arrangement of the camps. I suddenly find myself wondering where exactly this "accepted layout of the camp" came from? Is it pieced together from various Indian accounts? Did the scouts offer any opinions on it? Who came up with it first? Etc......
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Post by harpskiddie on Nov 15, 2007 10:49:49 GMT -6
clw:
The first descriptions of the size and etc of the camps came immediately after the fights from army survivors and other on the spot witnesses who had not been engaged. The assignment of names to the tribal "circles" came later, but I'm not at all sure who was first to come up with Hunkpapas on the south, Cheyennes on the north, and all else neatly arrayed in between. I know that I got it originally from Cheyennes [at least the northern bit] and filled in the rest from reading and researching.
There are a couple of maps which are attributed to NA sources [which I think you have already seen], one fairly close to contemporary with the fights and others from much later. Offhand, I cannot think of any accounts from the Crows or Arikaras which mention the camps in any detail. Given the misidentification of a Cheyenne camp as Sioux back in March, I doubt that anyone was paying too much attention to what the scouts had to say [they generally didn't anyway, even when they could understand].
Gordie, MC
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Post by Scout on Nov 26, 2007 6:19:21 GMT -6
"That's one of the main problems with studying these fights, if one comes to the study with an open mind - you constantly are being forced to rethink events and interpretations of actions as you come across new evidence. And believe me, there IS new evidence surfacing from time to time. Not always earthshaking, to be sure, but............"
Well put Gordie. Robert Utley said a good historian is always changing his mind. Locked into one mindset of what happened will get you nowhere. I'm always weary of someone who says they know exactly what happened there. That's the last person I want to talk to.
The burial party that arrived in 77 had a tremendous task of just finding bodies. Almost all had lay unburied till the following year. Wolves and coyotes enjoyed themselves there for quite a while. Horse bones mixed in with human bones also contributed to the problem. Bones were probably moved around, carried off, etc. I doubt if 30% of the markers are in the right place. Just about every map of that shows the layout of the village is different!
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Post by harpskiddie on Nov 26, 2007 10:34:37 GMT -6
Scout:
I don't mind changing my mind - I do it a lot, about a variety of subjects. What I hate is changing my mind and then having to re-write chapters I thought I had finished. Sometimes it's easier to simply ignore the evidence; but I've never been able to do that [some might argue - but that's because we disagree on the credibility level].
But, there you go.
Gordie MC mixed-up changer.........................
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Post by bc on Nov 26, 2007 13:38:54 GMT -6
Harps, if you keep re-writing everytime you change your mind, you will never get your book done. At some time you just have to go with what you got. Weight and credit placed upon any facts out there will always be subjective. Of course, this board and Fred's battle chronology is really putting out a lot of information in one place. Also you could sell more books if you come out with a new and revised edition every few years. That said, I understand the need to try to get it right the first time. Good luck.
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