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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 18, 2008 19:57:11 GMT -6
I was browsing the net looking for Clara Blinn stories when I followed a link to History.net and a page about 'Wild West' magazine. I've never heard of it, but the latest issue there is all about GAC so naturally I took a gander. Hmmm...interesting stuff, but pretty sensationalized and full of a lot of little inaccuracies and not complete rendering of of incidents.
However two articles caught my attention:
The first deals with the Frank Finkle 'sole survivor' story. Apparently the author/researcher (can't remember the name) makes the case that Frank was in actual fact Sergt. August Finkle, and that he did survive. The story does sort of hold together, but is a bit of a stretch in places. One thing that is mentioned is that only Kanipe identifed the two day old in the hot sun body (and if you've ever had the misfortune to see one--it ain't pretty!) and that Windolph went around specificly looking for Finkle and he couldn't find him.
The second was written by Robert Nightingale telling that we need to rethink the whole battle because a NEW soldier fighting area has been discovered north of Last Stand Hill but closer to the river. No bodies because the soldiers there were successful and made off with their wounded etc. Of course the site is on private land and he isn't telling the location because of potential looters. We must take his word for it that GAC had the perfect plan (the main point of the article) and this new battle area proves it.
I wish I could have linked them but cannot. Do check these out...it's food for conversation if nothing else. I'd love to hear other opinions.
Jas~
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Post by bc on Mar 18, 2008 23:15:26 GMT -6
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Post by bc on Mar 18, 2008 23:33:41 GMT -6
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 19, 2008 7:47:26 GMT -6
Nightengale is not one of the most reliable "historians" out there. He based some of his theories on the Maguire map which has been proven to be wrong and/or misleading.
He always did some testing of the sound of gunfire from Custer's fight and how loud it would be on Reno Hill with some erroneous results.
PS: Our Swiss Miss uses Nightengale a lot to "prove" his opinions. 'Enough said!
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Post by cefil on Apr 5, 2008 19:42:32 GMT -6
The June 2008 issue of Wild West magazine includes a bunch of Custer & Indian Wars material:
Cover Art: Andy Warhol's Custer
Giovanni Martini: The Message Got Through, by John Koster
Sitting Bull Rests, But Is He At Peace? The Debate Continues Over Where His Bones Belong, by Bill Markley
Ten Myths of the Little Bighorn, by Greg Michno
The Battle of Whitestone Hill, by Jerry Keenan
The Frontier Army Museum, Fort Leavenworth (includes a picture of "The Custer Sleigh")
cefil
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Post by gocav76 on Apr 5, 2008 19:45:44 GMT -6
cefil, "Giovanni Martini: The Message Got Through, by John Koster" The message got through-but like Martini's English,not one person could understand it!
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Post by markland on Apr 13, 2008 14:21:52 GMT -6
The June 2008 issue of Wild West magazine includes a bunch of Custer & Indian Wars material: Cover Art: Andy Warhol's Custer Giovanni Martini: The Message Got Through, by John Koster Sitting Bull Rests, But Is He At Peace? The Debate Continues Over Where His Bones Belong, by Bill Markley Ten Myths of the Little Bighorn, by Greg Michno The Battle of Whitestone Hill, by Jerry Keenan The Frontier Army Museum, Fort Leavenworth (includes a picture of "The Custer Sleigh") cefil I was lucky enough to pick up the last copy and look forward to reading it through. So far, I have only hit the letters to the editor were the first one is sure to have the veins in the CuckooNut's forehead popping because the letter-writer compares GAC to slave-traders, Nazis and states that he was a murderer. CEFIL, thanks for the heads up about this issue. Billy |
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Apr 13, 2008 16:36:35 GMT -6
The first deals with the Frank Finkle 'sole survivor' story. Apparently the author/researcher (can't remember the name) makes the case that Frank was in actual fact Sergt. August Finkle, and that he did survive. The story does sort of hold together, but is a bit of a stretch in places. One thing that is mentioned is that only Kanipe identifed the two day old in the hot sun body (and if you've ever had the misfortune to see one--it ain't pretty!) and that Windolph went around specificly looking for Finkle and he couldn't find him. Jas~
Jas, there are two booklets that cover the Frank Finkel story pretty well. The first is the Charles Kulman "Massacre Survivor!" which tends to believe Finkel was a survivor and the second is "No Custer Survivors" or "The Unveiling of Frank Finkel" by W. Boyes, which is in effect a rebuttal of the Kuhlman version. In Boyes work he says that "The differences between the original 1921 story of Finkel and all five subsequent editions are appalling," so he clearly has no faith in the story. Hunk |
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Post by cefil on Aug 9, 2008 17:24:10 GMT -6
The latest issue of Wild West magazine (October 2008) has hit the newsstands, with He Dog on the cover and featuring a "Special Report" on the Indian Wars by Robert Utley, along with articles by Charles Robinson III (Best of the Indian Fighters) and Greg Michno (Crook at the Infernal Caverns).
Robinson and Michno also choose their "Ablest commanders in the Western Indian wars."
Robinson's list: Crook, Miles, Mackenzie, Connor, Harney, Sully, Sibley, Merritt, Howard, Custer.
Michno's list: Miles, Mackenzie, Crook, Carleton, Carson, Wright, Sully, Connor, Morrow, Carr.
It's nice to see Alfred Sully solidly placed on both lists.
cefil
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Post by Treasuredude on Aug 12, 2008 17:36:15 GMT -6
Put me in the duh column. I just realized where the moniker 'cefil' came from.
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Post by bc on Aug 12, 2008 18:43:58 GMT -6
Well duh, why didn't you tell me then. I just spent the last 10 minutes reading this thread before it finally dawned on my thick head.
I will note for the others that while Mr. Boyes has gone on the record against the Finkle survival, he has also gone on the record in the LBHA research review (through his map with no explanation) that Custer crossed the river at ford D, moved south and engaged the NAs in the village, and then recrossed the LBH to end up at LSH. Certainly plausible, but I'd like to hear or see the evidence behind it before I could even consider to accept such a theory.
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Post by Treasuredude on Aug 12, 2008 19:40:43 GMT -6
I was looking up something in a book and read, "Companies C, E, F, I, L went with Custer".
Duh.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Aug 13, 2008 0:10:27 GMT -6
T-Dude, I am so glad you explained it. I was trying to figure out what cefil had to do with Wild West magazine!
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 13, 2008 7:48:24 GMT -6
The latest issue of Wild West magazine (October 2008) has hit the newsstands, with He Dog on the cover and featuring a "Special Report" on the Indian Wars by Robert Utley, along with articles by Charles Robinson III ( Best of the Indian Fighters) and Greg Michno ( Crook at the Infernal Caverns). Robinson and Michno also choose their "Ablest commanders in the Western Indian wars." Robinson's list: Crook, Miles, Mackenzie, Connor, Harney, Sully, Sibley, Merritt, Howard, Custer. Michno's list: Miles, Mackenzie, Crook, Carleton, Carson, Wright, Sully, Connor, Morrow, Carr. It's nice to see Alfred Sully solidly placed on both lists. cefil Michno (the Swiss Miss's favorite author) : No GAC? There is no joy in Mudville . . . make that Switzerland! |
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 13, 2008 11:08:46 GMT -6
Agree, it's nice to see Sully there. He definitely got a raw deal in 1868, which rather eclipsed his previous achievements.
There was much derision in the 1868 campaign directed at his "chasing Indians from an ambulance"; but I've read (true? or not?) that he did the same in 1865, and that worked just fine ... One of his biggest problems in '68, I think, was the army's schizophrenia about what he was supposed to be doing. On the one hand, the directives were to avoid an Indian war; on the other, to chase down perpetrators of depredations. Tough to succeed in that environment. Possibly, in hindsight, he made some mistakes -- re-arming the Indians in August, getting led across false trails later -- but he certainly did no worse than Custer had done in 1867. Rather better, if anything. At least he scored some definite Indian casualties, and didn't get anybody [e.g. Kidder] massacred. And then he selected the perfect site for Camp Supply, and got all that organised. Without his work, the Washita campaign could never have succeeded. It was his bad luck -- or bad judgement? -- that he raised the seniority question to pre-empt Governor Crawford's arrival (which, had he but known, wouldn't be for ages), giving Custer the opportunity to trump one brevet with another and boot Sully off the campaign. With Sheridan's connivance, of course. It was disgusting, really. Sully had to limp back feebly to Fort Harker, while the campaign went on without him. However much lip-service was paid to it being merely a jurisdictional matter (the campaign being pursued beyond his District, etc.) it had to look as if he was being sent home in disgrace. Not nice.
Have to say, I'm inclining more and more towards Eric's view that Sheridan was a slimy little toad, and not to be trusted with anything not nailed down. Custer ditto.
The only Sully biography extant (that I know of), No Tears for the General, by a descendant of his, more or less draws a veil over this episode; treats it very briefly. Seems he didn't write much about it. That says a lot for his self-restraint. If you or I were him, I suspect we'd have been fuming for many years after.
So. great to see him recognised here.
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