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Post by ma dawg got et on Nov 7, 2005 19:33:15 GMT -6
Elizabeth
Can't quite agree there. Lowe is judging Custer decades later. Yes, Custer was unnerved at going up in a balloon. He said so. But he was ordered to do it, so he dug in and did it.
I don't consider his courage at Yellowstone in 1873 to be impulsive. He and a few men held off Indians for hours waiting for help.
Benteen could afford to be cool on Reno Hill -- they were dug in, with 7/12 of the regiment and not being overrun with his men scattered across several ridges.
alfuso
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Post by elisabeth on Nov 9, 2005 1:55:35 GMT -6
Sorry, I didn't mean in any way to impugn Custer's courage -- any more than Lowe did. (If anything, as Sherman said, "he has rather too much of that commodity"!) Just trying to get at whether his TYPE of courage -- active and aggressive, rather than cool and steady -- influenced his decisions at LBH. As you say, he did end up "being overrun with his men scattered across several ridges". Was it inevitable? Or would a different type of personality have dug in for a stand much sooner than he did? Just asking ...
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Post by ma dawg got et on Nov 9, 2005 3:54:36 GMT -6
Custer appears to have had both types of coursge. But when your btatllion is spread across several ridges and falling apart it's damn hard to rally them, especially if you have been shot off your horse.
A dead or wounded Custer would have been a very disheartening sight as at the time as was his "legend" of luck and invincibility in the field that was the glue that held the esprit de corps together in the 7th.
The expedition was the first time the entire regiment had been together in several years, and not much time was given for the usual "bunky" bonding. The core of the esprit de corps had to be the commander's legend.
Fox's Archeology and Custer's Last Stand covers that psychological part of it quite well.
I do think Custer might have better served himself and his men if he'd retreated sooner...and Custer had been known to retreat when he thought it the right thing to do. He was a good Commander of horse -- he didn't suddenly forget everything he knew. But the revisionists would have us believe so.
alfuso
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Post by elisabeth on Nov 9, 2005 6:13:42 GMT -6
That's a good point, about Custer's legend/esprit de corps. And I totally agree that "when your battalion is spread across several ridges and falling apart it's damn hard to rally them". My stumbling-point is the question of why they WERE spread across several ridges. As you so rightly say, he didn't suddenly forget everything he knew. So he got into that position for a reason. A commander of a different stamp would have taken one look at the numbers of Indians and retreated; or, if that was impossible, opted for a combined 5-company defensive stand right away. Custer didn't. He wasn't an idiot, so he had SOMETHING else in mind ...
I suppose this entire board, to say nothing of everything written on the subject from 1876 onwards, is devoted to figuring out just what it was!
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 9, 2005 6:23:41 GMT -6
The 7th's command during the LBH Campaign had a number of seasoned officers who were assigned elsewhere for various reasons. When you lose veteran officers who had been with their companies and new officers come in, it is very difficult for enlisted men to bond with the new man. It's possible that was one of many reasons why cohesion broke down quickly during Custer's final moments.
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Post by ma dawg got et on Nov 9, 2005 12:01:39 GMT -6
Add not having time to bond with the new company officer and very subtly "bonding" instead with the Custer legend, when he went down, things fell apart rapidly.
And if you take in Michno's assertion in Lakota Noon (I think?) that the village may not have been as big as historically presented and/or GAC was tring to take some pressure off of Reno, yet things crumbled pretty badly. And I think it was Custer being wounded/killed. when that shot fired through the various companies it may havew triggered an "Oh crap!" mind-set that no mount of esprit de corps (even applied with the flat of a hand) could counter.
alfuso
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Post by markland on Dec 26, 2005 7:41:39 GMT -6
Last night while going through the TV channels to find something to watch, I saw that CSPAN2's "Books" show had an interview with the editor of G.I.B., William B. Styple. Absolutely fascinating. If you have a chance, watch it. I was halfway inclined to get this book after reading your reviews but I will definitely be ordering it today with my Xmas gift card.
Best to all,
Billy
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Post by Tricia on Dec 29, 2005 16:28:40 GMT -6
Last night while going through the TV channels to find something to watch, I saw that CSPAN2's "Books" show had an interview with the editor of G.I.B., William B. Styple. Absolutely fascinating. If you have a chance, watch it. I was halfway inclined to get this book before after reading your reviews but I will definitely be ordering it today with my Xmas gift card. Best to all, Billy Billy-- The book is absolutely fascinating ... both the Custer and the non-Custer parts. I particularly enjoyed Pennington's "take" on Custer's behaviour at the Grand Review in May, 1865. Strange how Don Juan "thought" a race might have been starting with the drum flourishes and took off with the Boy General. Still not entirely sure I believe it was just an accident! Regards, Leyton McLean |
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Post by alfuso on Dec 30, 2005 10:35:50 GMT -6
Leyton
I have several books with eye-witness accounts of the Review. All of them say it appeared that Custer's horse was spooked by a tossed bouquet.
The same thing happened to Chamberlain later and it's in his autobio.
I have personally see the finest horsemen in the world -- the Lipizzaner riders -- have a horse bolt on them. Boston Garden, 1964.
alfuso
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Post by Tricia on Dec 30, 2005 11:34:58 GMT -6
Alfuso--
True, I'd always heard it was the wreath of flowers that (Pennington says that Custer was actually the one who affixed it) caused the horse to bolt. But Pennington was rather insistent that the drums' flourish (one for a brigadier general, two for a major general and three for a division commander)--as Custer and Don Juan passed the Presidential review stand--completely unnerved Custer's mount.
As I recall, whilst still a racehorse, Don Juan had been trained to "go" at the sound of a drum. At least that is what Pennington said.
Regards,
Leyton McLean
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 30, 2005 13:11:52 GMT -6
Considering that Custer shot his own horse when Buffalo hunting on Plains I guess the loss of control of his horse during the parade is not that far-fetched. So much for him being an expert rider . . .
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Post by Tricia on Dec 30, 2005 13:32:00 GMT -6
Considering that Custer shot his own horse when Buffalo hunting on Plains I guess the loss of control of his horse during the parade is not that far-fetched. So much for him being an expert rider . . . Crzhrs-- His mount? I thought he killed Custis Lee, which I believe was Libbie's horse and had to walk back to find the rest of the regiment (though I believe a search party--with Tom in tow--found him first). Still ... okay, it was GAC's horse "for a day!" However, horsemanship was one of GAC's best subjects whilst at West Point--I think that might count for something. Happy New Year! Leyton McLean |
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Post by alfuso on Dec 30, 2005 22:32:19 GMT -6
Crzhrs
Buffalo hunt success was counted in least horses lost. It was not uncommon to lose a few horses during a Buffalo Hunt. Most often by the rider accidentally shooting his horse out from under him.
alfuso
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 4, 2006 7:23:42 GMT -6
Lyeton:
I don't know who the owner of the horse was that Custer shot, but he did shoot the horse he was riding.
Alfuso:
Losing horses while buffalo hunting is counter productive. Most professional buffalo hunters shot from a prone position far removed from the animals. I don't think Indians would have lost many horses from shooting them, but it was quite possible that they lose horses from a enraged buffalo that turned on the horse.
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Post by alfuso on Jan 4, 2006 8:06:41 GMT -6
crzhrs
I wasn't talking about professional buffalo hunters. I am speaking of the hell-bent-for-leather buffalo hunts put on on the plains by Custer, et al, to entertain eastern dudes and occasionally, English aristocracy.
Indians lost horses during a hunt probably from wounded buffalo and from tripping. The hell-on-leather crowd lost horses to tripping, wounded buffalo, over-exerting the horses and accidentally shooting them.
The "owner" of the horse Custer shot out from under himself was Libbie. It was Custis Lee, her favorite riding horse.
alfuso
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