"The Mystery Of E Troop," Gregory F. Michno

[Tricia]

All--

I purchased this book forever ago, and am just now starting it. There have been so many discussions around these parts about how Michno now discounts some of the hypotheses he presents in this narrative ... and I wanted to know. Has this book become just an exhibit in the evolving historiography of the Little Bighorn--or can the reader still gain important knowledge?

Regards,
Leyton McLean

[fred]

Leyton--

I tend to doubt Michno has discounted anything he wrote in that book. For the most part, I almost completely agree w/ his hypothesis. As you may or may not know, there are few people around who are bigger fans of Richard Allan Fox, Jr., than me. If we were in the ranking mode (boy, am I ever sticking my rear-end out the window on this one!), I would rank Fox as the number 1 writer/ historian alive today when it comes to the LBH. (Michno would not be far behind.) I agree w/ almost everything Fox has postulated, w/ one exception, & that is the location of those mysterious 18 men (or is it 27? 28?) everyone assumes were killed in Deep Ravine.

Michno, in this book, makes a solid case that these men died in or near the Cemetery Ravine environs. His argument makes sense, especially in light of the fact that nothing-- & I mean absolutely nothing-- has ever been found in Deep Ravine that would point to 18 men having been killed there. I know all about the erosion arguments, the washed-away arguments, & all the rest, but come on, nothing has ever been found that would put those men there.

Be that as it may, Michno makes a solid case in this book & it is well worth reading. Personally, I consider Michno's 2 books as being two of the very best & two of the most entertaining, as well. He's a witty writer, his stuff is always well-researched, he is fluid & is not afraid to take on an argument. It is great stuff & well worth your efforts, now or at any time.

This is also a thread we have never really entertained, isn't it?

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Jim]

Leyton,

I agree with Fred up to a point. The point that I disagree with is the Cemetary Ravine VS. Deep Ravine fiasco. I cannot fathom troopers being killed in Cemetary Ravine and sliding down to the bottom. It wasn't steep enough to have post-battle personnel stating that they could still see where their hands were digging into the sides of the ravine trying to get out.

Deep Ravine is still my vote where the 18, 27 or 28 bodies are still hidden. My opinion is that if they were in the Cemetary Ravine, and killed, their bodies would NOT have moved much farther than where they fell.

BUT, the book is still an excellent READ!

Jim

[fred]

Jim--

I do not disagree w/ you about the "clawing" marks on the side-walls of Deep Ravine. I think some men were killed there, some men made it into that ravine, but the majority of that number (I just looked it up; it is 28, not 18) were killed in or near Cemetery Ravine (according to Michno). Michno's case is too compelling for me. Because of the lack of archeological evidence in Deep Ravine (did they ever do Cemetery Ravine?), the preponderance of historical evidence seems to come down on the side of Cemetery Ravine (at least to me). Also, from a tactical viewpoint, Michno's argument makes sense. Fox felt the rout drove the troops into Deep Ravine, but I am not so sure I totally agree w/ him there. It is very hard to believe an entire company-- or what was left of it-- would flee, en masse, into a deep ditch crawling w/ Indians. And they had to know there were Indians in that trench. That's where a lot of firing was coming from & it was their main infiltration route to the battlefield, the Ho Chi Minh Trail of the Little Big Horn.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Jim]

Fred--

My only response is twofold. 1) you stated that there were 18, not me. All the accounts I have read is that there were between 27 - 30 in the Ravine. 2) The burial detail stated that the troopers from the 7th that had to bury those on the ravine became sick and were vomiting. They decided to chip off the sides of the ravive to bury them. -- Deep Ravine would have buried them if they broke off the edges. Cemetary Ravine's edges would have NOT. I doubt that the burial crew would have gone down the sides of Cemetary Ravine to finish their jobs, they were still vomitting!!!

Ho Chi Mihn Trail is far from the LBH! No tunnel system there!

Jim

[fred]

jim said:

1) you stated that there were 18, not me.

No, you are correct. The disputed number is 28. The second point you raise, I cannot dispute. All I can say is that if Deep Ravine is not as sharply defined today as it was in 1876 or 1877, then I would think the same might be said about Cemetery Ravine. With the stench as bad as it was, it wouldn't make any difference where you were; you might still be vomiting, Deep or Cemetery.

You have a strong point w/ the breaking off of the sides of the ravine, but it may still have been possible to do something like that in Cemetery Ravine. The problem is that none of the men were too specific.

Again, was Cemetery Ravine ever dug through? I do not think so, & w/ this as big a mystery as it is, you might think someone would undertake that task. I wonder what Fox would say about the whole thing?

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Jim]

Fred--

I would be the FIRST one to volunteer digging in either one! AND I don't recall Cemetary Ravine EVER being dug. (BUT, I could be wrong)

I just remember when I was there, many times, that Deep Ravine would have been easy to chip off the sides to cover the bloated, smelly, distended bodies at the bottom of the ravine, whereas Cemetary ravine, would have been a little harder to complete the task! (Re: CSI Chicago)

AND, I'm sure that the ENTIRE battlefield would have made anyone sick, whether they smelled the stench or saw the mutilitation evident there!

Best wishes,
Jim

[fred]

Jim--

I agree. The biggest problem I have w/ Deep Ravine is the fact that these guys would have been running right into the teeth of the enemy & that doesn't make any sense to me. Plus, I believe it was reported (& Michno brings this out) that many of those dead bodies were shot in the back. That would fit w/ some sort of defensive position attacked from either or both of 2 sides, ergo, the SSL (sounds like a Mercedes-Benz, doesn't it?), which of course, Fox discounts as well. I don't know; I like the Cemetery Ravine business as opposed to Deep Ravine, but my argument is tenuous. Michno, however, makes the best argument for Cemetery Ravine & no one I know of has been able to contradict him, at least to the extent of his argument.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[lowdog]

I have not read "The Mystery of E Troop" as of yet, but have read Fox's "Archeology...", doesn't Fox say that a troop or 2 spent time in the vicinity of deep ravine for up to 20 minutes, around the time that Calhoun's troopers first come under fire? It would stand to reason that the troopers that fled to deep ravine would have felt that as a "safe zone", only to find Warriors had taken positions there.

[fred]

Lowdog--

No, my friend. The 20 minutes were spent on Cemetery Ridge. Fox, however, is a proponent of the Deep Ravine-- rather than the Cemetery Ravine-- demise of those 28 troopers.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[El Crab]

I should just put this in my signature, I find myself reading the same things about Michno changing his mind.

Michno has not backed off his theories. He does think that his book's theory is misunderstood, when summed up in a nutshell. I won't go beyond that, since you should read it to find out what that is. But again, Michno has not backed off his book's claims. That's just something I hear about every 3 months, and last time I talked to Greg via email, he cleared that up:

I think many people misinterpreted what I was saying in The Mystery of E Troop. Somehow, it has come out, that Michno says all the “missing” 28 men were really killed in Cemetery Ravine. What I said was...

Greg Michno, email to author, Jan 19, 2004


I think it has mostly to do with people flipping the book over, reading the back cover only. Then they assume they know what Michno claims. The back cover blurb is worded a bit poorly, IMO.

[fred]

Crab--

I modified my original post; and you are absolutely correct regarding Michno's position. I still agree w/ him despite my inability to iterate his arguments without having to pore through my notes.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Lawtonka]

I think The Mystery of E Troop is a very objective study. I believe Michno has presented everything he could possibly put together on the subject. While I love the archeology, and respect it highly, sometimes I think the recognition that the recovery of artifacts prior to the official digs has been left out.

I think the existence of the National Cemetery and the Visitors Center creates a visual obstacle that some of us are distracted by. When Terry's men and others visited the battle site on the 27, they did not have these landmarks in their way.

As far as seeking safety in the closing moments of the battle, I think these men were so desperate, and not having anywhere to go, the ravine, whether it be Deep Ravine or Cemetery Ravine, was the only natural safe harbor as they could find.

Very interesting subject. Hopefully, one day we will know more. Either they will dig deeper in the Deep Ravine, or explore the Cemetery Ravine.

[Jas. Watson]

For what it's worth, I have the seperate dig report on just the deep ravine, showing the actual plotted investigative trenches there. I have worked in the archaeological field (as conservator, not excavator) for many years and archaeologists will be the first to say that tranverse trenching is not the best way to discover remains in a linear feature. In other words they were guessing or shooting in the dark. So what I am saying here is deep ravine has NOT been adequately dug or investigated yet. Even the report says that there is a very good chance that the remains would be further up the ravine than the trenching work. I agree with this in that the sides of the ravine were steeper then, meaning that the ravine would have been deeper further up (and the later fill would bring any artifacts to below usual metal detector range). The investigative trenching was done in the deeper (today) parts as would seem logical from the period accounts. But those same descriptions would equally apply to a further up part of the ravine back then.
My bet is that they need to look further up the ravine.

But then the cemetery ravine should be checked too. Now I really want to read the book that's the subject of this thread.

Jas.~

[fred]

Jas.--

If you have not read the Fox book, try reading the 2, back-to-back. They are 2 of the best I have ever read, especially Fox' (6 or 7 times!).

I would buy bodies in the upper part of Deep Ravine, but not so much the lower. If bodies were found much lower down, I would think it would confirm Fox' theory of a rout. I believe him now, but I think he may have over-stated it just a bit. Only panicked men would follow that route, clarity of thought not being foremost in their minds at the time.

Best wishes,
Fred.