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Post by noggy on Oct 30, 2018 3:33:57 GMT -6
Well I`ve been to Greece and nearly committed suicide by beer there in my younger days, but can`t find anything about Sioux and Cheyenne warriors in your link. All the best, Noggy Oops! Sorry . . . just came back from Greece and apparently was on a travel website and copied the wrong link for the Suicide Boys. Here is the RIGHT link: www.friendslittlebighorn.com/gazettsuicideboys.htmGreece is lovely . . . and you can compare the Indian warriors to the Greek Warriors . . . I wouldn't want to face either of them! Hehe, I guessed it was something like this that happened. I have read this, but all of the sudden i want to travel to Greece again. Go figure. All the best, Noggy
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Post by noggy on Oct 30, 2018 4:02:06 GMT -6
Some of this comes from John Stands in Timber. Here is what JSIT states page 455 A Cheyenne Voice "--- not exactly suicide in English, some old fashioned words used back there--- just like a ceremony to give the spirit away---and nearest expression used is the Young Man is an Old Man--- he is young but he is about to die." What is talked about is that you will be remembered if you die in battle but is less likely if you die of old age. This really gets into what constitutes a warrior spirit even into today standards. AZ Ranger We have to be very careful regarding interpretation of the Indian's words or statements. Suicide could mean something entirely different than what we consider "suicide" to be just like Wooden Leg's name. Did he have a wooden leg or was he capable of walking long distances without getting tired . . . thus he must have legs made out of wood. or Custer's soldiers fought as if they were drunk. Were they really drunk or did they fight so poorly? Young warriors were willing to fight to the death, not to throw their lives away but for a number of reasons: defense of the woman and children or to gain honors. Just like the Japanese soldiers of WWII who fought to the death . . . not to commit suicide but to die with honor or not to embarrass their families by surrendering or giving up. Interpretation of Indian accounts of the LBH and other events during that period can certainly cloud or confuse what actually happened. It would take a trained scholar or historian to figure out what they really meant and not take it so literally as we do. Wooden Leg himself talked specifically about suicides among the Cheyenne; " Suicides were not uncommon among us. Men shot themselves, women hung themselves. Foolish ones yet do such acts." He actually talks about this over a couple of pages. The act of suicide is, I guess, pretty universal for the most part, but the motives and cultural aspects may differ immensely. If that makes sense. My guess is that "Suicide Boys" was just the closest JSIT could come describing a bunch of young men who willingly would go on what we today call "suicide mission" should the need arise. Like you mention, Japanese soldiers or Kamikaze pilots where seen as sacrificing themselves rather than committing suicide, but if a Japanese POV i 1941 were to describe to a G.I what a Kamikaze pilot`s mission was, I bet he`d describe it using the word "suicide" in some way. Even my ancestors had a chosen group of warriors who would fight outside the ranks and just throw themselves into the enemy to create havoc in their lines ("Berserk", which has a place in English nowadays too), and it was taken as a given that they`d perish in the process. And if not, they`d get it in the next battle. Death itself was however not the goal, it was about going out in style. All the best, Noggy
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Post by noggy on Apr 8, 2019 11:36:47 GMT -6
I know there is some discussion about during what time of the battle these guys attacked, but I don`t feel all that certain I understand where they attacked. Where do people here place the suicide boys attack? From the Deep Ravine area, on Cemetery Ridge, different places around the same time?
Please help out a confused Scandinavian!
All the best, Noggy
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Post by Colt45 on Apr 8, 2019 14:43:01 GMT -6
I believe some of the Indian accounts place the suicide boys around Cemetery Hill, and that their attack is what caused the horses to get away and what broke the organized resistance of E company and probably F company as well.
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Post by noggy on Apr 10, 2019 1:43:37 GMT -6
I believe some of the Indian accounts place the suicide boys around Cemetery Hill, and that their attack is what caused the horses to get away and what broke the organized resistance of E company and probably F company as well. Hello Colt Yes, JSIT (at least in the text I have, I do believe there may be more) said "they" gathered around where the Cemetery is today. If this means all 20 pr so warriors is something I doubt, since it would be a long the lines of a combined Sioux-Cheyenne "unit" operating together or something, and as the US attack beginned they found each other to join forces. Sounds a little strange to me. Hardorff has Noisy Walking dying in Deep Ravine, and two named suicide boys were found dead in the Keogh sector I believe Fox or Scott wrote. This is from the top of my head, with either Hardorff og Participants at hand, since I`m with family for some more days. So; could a fair assumption be that most , not necessarily every single participant in the Dying Dance, attacked from the Cemetery area and then died at various places, with the possibility of some fighting individually but keeping to their oaths? All the best, Noggy
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Post by Colt45 on Apr 10, 2019 6:38:31 GMT -6
That's a very real possibility. With all the dust, smoke, and confusion that reigned at that time, it is almost certain that some of the suicide boys survived the initial attack at cemetery hill only to die elsewhere later on.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 14, 2019 5:01:48 GMT -6
There are a small number of hostile battle informants who stand head and shoulders above the bulk. This statement isn't worth arguing it is realistic fact. One of them is Northern Cheyenne Little Hawk. His information can be developed any which way you like because there are no terrain clues provided, a broad difficulty with the tribal accounts. However, Two Moons provided this information and the movement which Little Hawk related in his account was across Deep Coulee and along Battle Ridge. That is what the group of warriors whom he rode with, did. Whether Crazy Horse led that group is a little more awkward and not the point of this point. The point is that Cheyenne suicide boys were in the group with Little Hawk and died during that movement. This is first hand information referenced by terrain and direction of movement. Across Deep Coulee onto Battle Ridge towards Custer's Hill. Beyond that - matters become conjectural but Noisy Walking and LWM died in that movement given by Little Hawk. Research of Little Hawk is all over the place because there were seveeral but Northern Cheyenne Little Hawk was very, very, special and worthy of an all action Hollywood blockbuster. He was probably nuts. If you cannot build that attack into your model, you ain't got spit or number one! The difficulty in arriving at the above is contemplating what Two Moon told us. Have fun. I recently discovered a brilliant example of the close quarter combat which took place on Custer's Hill - The modern genre of battle study continues steadfastly to ignore a basic reality of events after the valley retreat. Hundreds of hostile combatants went up the bluffs witnessed by DeRudio, and violently assaulted Custer's command by moving across Medicine Tail coulee and onto Battle Ridge. Hundrefs of them as told to Nelson Miles in.... 1878. On the battlefield by participants who were then scouting for his 5th Infantry regiment. > <
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Post by walkswounded on Jun 22, 2020 18:37:27 GMT -6
I have read that among the “suicide boys” (I agree, poor translation) was at least one female “warrior?” Is there any credible evidence of this?
ww
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Post by noggy on Jun 23, 2020 1:48:25 GMT -6
I have read that among the “suicide boys” (I agree, poor translation) was at least one female “warrior?” Is there any credible evidence of this? ww Hi Not that I know of. However I assume some confusion arose due to female relatives of these men who went on to the field looking for them. Many of the would do so while the fighting was still going on. Just a guess. Noggy
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 23, 2020 7:36:15 GMT -6
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Post by noggy on Jun 23, 2020 9:13:34 GMT -6
There were more than one woman who is said to have taken part in combat, one way or another, at LBH. But BCW was married and had children. Seems unlikely she would be associated with this group of warriors. All the best, Noggy
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Post by walkswounded on Jun 23, 2020 11:35:31 GMT -6
If I remember correctly, Buffalo Calf Woman is the female “warrior” who rescued her brother at the Rosebud battle. She was apparently quite a woman. And an excellent shot, it was reported. Kinda reminds me of my beloved wife.
ww
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Post by fred on Jun 24, 2020 11:48:47 GMT -6
Most sources claim there were about 20 or a little more "boys." There is no mention, anywhere, of female participants. The names of only six are known and their ages range from 15 to 30; and one of those is questionable as to even his presence at the battle. In fact, I have found no other reference to him having been there, so I do not include him in strength totals. One author claimed five were Cheyenne and all five were less than 20 years of age. Another source claimed most were Cheyenne, but there were some Sioux, primarily Oglala. Another author disputes the name "suicide" boys, claiming no Indian families would countenance the deliberate surrendering of lives, battle or no battle. This particular author believes "suicide" is a poor translation of an untranslatable Indian word.
The fact all five known "suicide boys" were killed is almost irrelevant because it is believed the group, as a whole, was the last one in the battle and was the group overrunning Last Stand Hill. If they died, they would be memorialized so chances are we would know their names. If there were others who survived, we might not know those particular names, which lends credence to the one author's belief "suicide" was an inappropriate appellation.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by walkswounded on Jun 24, 2020 13:03:49 GMT -6
Most sources claim there were about 20 or a little more "boys." There is no mention, anywhere, of female participants. The names of only six are known and their ages range from 15 to 30; and one of those is questionable as to even his presence at the battle. In fact, I have found no other reference to him having been there, so I do not include him in strength totals. One author claimed five were Cheyenne and all five were less than 20 years of age. Another source claimed most were Cheyenne, but there were some Sioux, primarily Oglala. Another author disputes the name "suicide" boys, claiming no Indian families would countenance the deliberate surrendering of lives, battle or no battle. This particular author believes "suicide" is a poor translation of an untranslatable Indian word. The fact all five known "suicide boys" were killed is almost irrelevant because it is believed the group, as a whole, was the last one in the battle and was the group overrunning Last Stand Hill. If they died, they would be memorialized so chances are we would know their names. If there were others who survived, we might not know those particular names, which lends credence to the one author's belief "suicide" was an inappropriate appellation. Best wishes, Fred. Excellent, thank you Sir. ww
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Post by noggy on Jun 24, 2020 15:53:45 GMT -6
Most sources claim there were about 20 or a little more "boys." There is no mention, anywhere, of female participants. The names of only six are known and their ages range from 15 to 30; and one of those is questionable as to even his presence at the battle. In fact, I have found no other reference to him having been there, so I do not include him in strength totals. One author claimed five were Cheyenne and all five were less than 20 years of age. Another source claimed most were Cheyenne, but there were some Sioux, primarily Oglala. Another author disputes the name "suicide" boys, claiming no Indian families would countenance the deliberate surrendering of lives, battle or no battle. This particular author believes "suicide" is a poor translation of an untranslatable Indian word. The fact all five known "suicide boys" were killed is almost irrelevant because it is believed the group, as a whole, was the last one in the battle and was the group overrunning Last Stand Hill. If they died, they would be memorialized so chances are we would know their names. If there were others who survived, we might not know those particular names, which lends credence to the one author's belief "suicide" was an inappropriate appellation. Best wishes, Fred. Excellent, thank you Sir. ww First of all, it`s great to see Fred posting again. He`s one of the reasons I joined this board. Second of all, I doubt we, as ...(I have to choose my words carefully now) anglo-saxons can ever understand the concept of what the "suicide boys"-thing really was or meant. According to Wooden Leg, the Sioux learned of the whole "dying dance" and all this stuff from the Cheyenne. So who knows. Maybe some warriors during the fight just... felt they had to fight? And were inspired by the wow (?) taken by others? Some sources say "all suicide boys were killed" but Fred and others work show this doesnt make sense. I should be more coherent, but Man United won 3-0 and I have to go to work tomorrow. Noggy
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