|
Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 28, 2007 8:49:20 GMT -6
A: No, sir; I think Lieut. Mathey got that order.
That's not very strong testimony. I think.
Q: Did you receive any orders during that march from the place where you received General Custer's orders until you reached Major Reno's command on the hill? A: No, sir, .........
Much clearer. No, sir
Mathey's testimony, RCOI, p458: Q: Who did you meet near the tepee, and what orders if any were received? A: After passing the tepee, probably two or three miles, I don't remember the distance, I saw somebody coming back. One, I remember, was a half breed. [One, he remembers. Were there more? His statement clearly implies there were more than one.]
Where does it state he received orders in the answer to the question?
So we have McDougall stating he did not receive orders and Mathey never stating he received any order.
I would like someone to explain how you significantly speed up the pack train. And why anyone would think if they gave that order the whole packtrain would speed-up. You can tightened it up which would slow it down and you could give it a heads up we're engaged but speed it up and keep it together at the same time? I can't believe the mules change behavior just because they are about to go to battle.
Somehow the fact that they had 20% of the troops and the ammunition seems more important than the hardtack.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 28, 2007 9:31:16 GMT -6
I would also think that the quickest route is not always a straight line across country. I would have made that messenger stay with me and guide me to the quickest route to where that message came from. There should have been a lot more conversation rather than hurry up and go cross country. That would assume that they were malingering and really could speed up and they knew where to go cross county and reach the end point.
|
|
|
Post by mcaryf on Mar 28, 2007 10:53:50 GMT -6
Hi AZ Ranger
You omitted the end of the paragraph of McDougall's testimony that said he had been very concerned about the order that he thought Mathey had received. This gives it rather more emphasis.
You have also not mentioned McDougall's statement in Kanipe's reference that he had indeed brought a message to the packs.
The operating order to the train before Kanipe's arrival was to minimise dust which would plainly be at the expense of speed.
In practice of course Mathey halted the train which was certainly one way of impacting the speed!
I think people get too hung up on the cross country part of the Kanipe message - to me it probably just meant to come up on the bluffs rather than into the valley. When the order was sent Custer no doubt assumed he would soon be charging through the village in the valley but wanted the pack train in the safer environment of the bluffs. So the message was to make sure the packs did not follow Reno's trail or the sound of the guns but rather went up the bluffs to be out of the way.
There is a comment from Godfrey that it was often Custer's habit to place a detachment on high ground near a battle and that when he first saw the valley and Reno Hill he thought the Indians were being beaten in the valley and the Reno Hill mob was Custer's detachment on a hill. He was soon disabused of that notion but sending the pack train up on the bluffs when Custer expected to be in the valley would fit that idea.
Regards
Mike
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 28, 2007 11:00:43 GMT -6
You omitted the end of the paragraph of McDougall's testimony that said he had been very concerned about the order that he thought Mathey had received. This gives it rather more emphasis.
Not in court. You attack the weakest part and the I think is it. If someone says "I think" there is very little that matters after that.
|
|
|
Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 28, 2007 11:19:53 GMT -6
Ah, at last we're making some sense out of this. Mike's idea of GAC being sure the packs did not follow Reno but went high, makes sense. If the packs went into the valley who knows what would have happened (WE in the future do know of course, but back then it was a 'who knows'). So the question is, at what point--and most importantly, why, did the pack train go up instead of following Reno--did they merely follow the largest trail (Custer's), or were they directed? Or was it a prearranged thing?
If they were directed, then who did it and when? Obviously most likely by a messenger if they were...an NCO? I am thinking that Mike has something with that 'cross country' thing--it always seemed very logical that we wouldn't be talking a crow-flies line to Last Stand Hill. Mike's idea has much merit in my mind.
I'm still not convinced yet because I still wonder about the discrepency over whether the officers did in fact get a message.
I don't dispute that Sergt. Kanipe rode where he said he did--or even vaguely talked to various people, but the conundrum here is whether he was doing under offical capicity or just covering his butt. (and hardening his story as events unfolded) Mike's point sheds some light--if indeed the pack train was in fact redirected.
Jas~
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 28, 2007 11:20:37 GMT -6
Mathey's testimony, RCOI, p458: Q: Who did you meet near the tepee, and what orders if any were received? A: After passing the tepee, probably two or three miles, I don't remember the distance, I saw somebody coming back. One, I remember, was a half breed. [One, he remembers. Were there more? His statement clearly implies there were more than one.]
McDougall's testimony, RCOI, p472: Q: Did you receive any orders during that march from the place where you received General Custer's orders until you reached Major Reno's command on the hill? A: No, sir, the only thing was, Lieut. Mathey said the engagement was going on. Q: You received no notification to hurry up the pack train? A: No, sir; I think Lieut. Mathey got that order. He told me about it, and I told him to hurry up. I was very anxious about it.
Above is the complete testimony in the post I responded to. I think is the key it means I have no first hand information. Also that answer doesn't say I think it was Kanipe to the exclusive of any other messenger at best.
You have also not mentioned McDougall's statement in Kanipe's reference that he had indeed brought a message to the packs. Didn't see it in the post regarding testimony. It's in the testimony at RCOI?
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Mar 28, 2007 11:58:09 GMT -6
A short quote from The Approach To The Little Horn - The Pack Train And Messengers:
page 4
"......Why Mathey and McDougall would deny receiving this order is a question that has no logical answer - no odium ever really attached itself to the actions of either of them during their appraoch to the Little Horn - but it is hardly likely that it was simply forgotten. That McDougall remembers Mathey telling him about receiving the message is puzzling [the evidence has been presented previously], since Knipe says he gave it to McDougall.
"Some critics make much of these disavowals, and attempt to show that the packs were not brought 'straight across country' and nor were any packs reported having been cut loose. In fact when Knipe arrived at the pack train at approximately H1545, the mules were strung out for almost a mile, and the topography at the abandoned village location did not lend itself to a quick right oblique. The northern side of the valley is hemmed in hereby some high bluffs known to the Crows as the 'White Rocks,' and it would have been impossible to have simply made a sharp right turn."
page 5
"Whether by design or by chance, Mathey and McDougall waited until the train was clear of the bluffs and then prepared to move onto the higher ground. This may have been in repsonse to Custer's order sent via Knipe - maybe they disremembered receiving it - or it may have been a military reaction to the scene unfolding before them. In any event, they did what had to be done............."
page 7
"The questions must remain unresolved: Did Knipe give his message to Mathey? to McDougall? to either? and did Martin take an order from Benteen to McDougall? Did it make any difference either way?..........................."
page 8
".........................It can be seen that Mathey and McDougall, whether or not they truly received any messages through Knipe or Martin, did exactly what was indicated and necessary in the circumstances."
Gordie
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 28, 2007 12:12:15 GMT -6
The operating order to the train before Kanipe's arrival was to minimise dust which would plainly be at the expense of speed. I have not seen that operating order but for the sake of discussion will assume it exists. I am not sure how you do that with a pack train? I believe they moved at a walk anyway with very little trotting and certainly no galloping. Anytime you move anywhere those at the end have to run to keep up. I would guess there was two speeds for the mules carrying packs walk and trot. Are you saying there was an order not close up if you fall behind? My vision, could be wrong, is the packtrain was like an accordion continuously expanding and contracting with different epicenters of dust generation.
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Mar 28, 2007 12:57:22 GMT -6
Of course Kanipe saying it would have been another sergeant just would be another means for him to justify "leaving."
|
|
|
Post by blaque on Mar 28, 2007 12:59:47 GMT -6
As DO Harris pointed out before, MacDougall did not hesitate in admitting that he did receive a “hurry up instruction” from Custer many years later, when such an acknowledgment could not ruin his career.
As to Mathey’s testimony, well, I wonder what would be his definition of “orders” (Nichols p. 513): Q: Did you receive orders from General Custer or Major Reno or Captain Benteen on that march? A: NO, sir, only such as I received from Captain McDougall […] Q. Did you meet any oficer there with orders? A. After we started I saw Lt. Hare, who said he wanted the ammunition.
Then, according to Mathey, he did not receive any order from Reno through his adjudant to bring ammunition to the front; he simply met a Lt. asking for some ammo!
As to the feasibility of actually hurrying up a mule train, Mathey’s chief believed it could be made, because after crossing the Divide “Captain McDougall was urging me to get the packs along as fast as possible. I did so…” The Captain is more precise, as he testified that when Mathey was about one mile beyond the Lone Tepee “I told him to hurry up with the mules as fast as possible” (Nichols p. 529). A suggestive location, doesn’t it?
|
|
|
Post by mcaryf on Mar 28, 2007 13:00:48 GMT -6
Hi AZ Ranger
The statement from McDougall that Kanipe was a messenger to the pack train was made as part of a reference that he gave him in later life. I included it as a general response to the tenor of your post which was to the effect that McDougall did not support the fact that Kanipe had been a messenger.
I also responded to the other points you raised about what the train might do different as a result of the message. The issue about the dust is covered in the first few paragraphs of Mathey's RCOI testimony. Cooke had told him that morning in Mathey's last order from Custer to keep the mules off the trail to minimise the dust. This would realistically mean that the mules would have to go over more difficult ground that the rest of the command and the Indians had avoided. Thus trading off speed versus dust.
To be fair to Kanipe try to put yourself in his position. He is trying to deliver a message to tell the train to follow a specific course of action i.e. go faster (ignore the minimise dust order) and take the route up to the bluffs. When he reaches the front of the train which needs to take the action who does he tell? McDougall is a mile or so away at the back with his escorting company and Mathey is off somewhere changing his horse. I guess it is likely that he told the people at the front of the train (see Frett's statements in Blaque's post above) what they should do - here the fact that he was a Sergeant is an advantage. After that according to him he went looking for McDougall and probably told him that he had delivered the message to the front of the train. It would be understandable if some confusion arose with McDougall thinking that this meant Mathey knew when in fact he didn't and it is Frett and his colleagues that actually lead the train in the direction intended.
My point in suggesting this scenario is just to show that there is at least one explanation that could show all the participants in a reasonable light. I am very reluctant to say Kanipe is a villain when the evidence is confused and there is at least one and probably other possibilities that allow his version to be broadly correct.
Regards
Mike
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 28, 2007 16:36:38 GMT -6
Isn't Kanipe credited with making the statement that "up to the time that the retreat the began, Reno had not lost a man". Does this make another officer at RCOI suspect in his testimony since Lt. Wallace also testified differently to Kanipe's statements.
|
|
|
Post by mcaryf on Mar 29, 2007 2:30:13 GMT -6
Hi AZ Ranger
I am not familiar with that Kanipe statement. To what retreat was he referring? The only one where he was present was the move back from Weir Point and it was correct that Reno had not lost a man when that started as the farrier was killed as they were retreating.
Regards
mike
|
|
|
Post by d o harris on Mar 29, 2007 3:22:47 GMT -6
Mike, this is an old technique. If one cannot refute the evidence, attack Kanipe. If you don't like the message kill the messenger, or the beneficiary. If one clearly reads the case as stated it is clear neither Kanipe nor his subsequent statements were used as evidence he was a messenger. His remarks from 1908 until he died are irrelevant.
The evidence first supported that there was a messenger, that the messenger was a sargeant, and then McDougall's 1897 statement that Kanipe delivered the message.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 29, 2007 6:21:34 GMT -6
Mike - Page 361 Custer's Luck and it says out of the Timber.
It is an old technique used in US courts to refute the credibility of a witness. Without being able to do that the jury or judge would not know if the witness was credible or not. That is why the courts allow surprise rebuttal witnesses.
Of course in this case only the officers have sworn testimony and the time to refute or rebut in a legal setting is long past. There is no reason for them to lie. They did the right thing whether they recieved a message or not. Kanipe is not mentioned in RCIO. The terrain dictated the direction of travel more than anything else.
AZ Ranger
|
|