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Post by fred on Mar 26, 2007 14:26:04 GMT -6
If your scenario is correct Fred his crime is no more dastardly than Reno's or Benteen's. You know, Wild, of that I will agree. While I am a huge supporter of Benteen-- as you know-- I will grant you that point. I condemn no one. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by BrokenSword on Mar 26, 2007 14:38:31 GMT -6
I can't, from what I know, judge Knipe's motives/actions/behaviour. I do kinda wonder - if he had stayed with Custer's column, would the 'hostiles' have given any worse a pounding than he's gotten here?
M
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Post by fred on Mar 26, 2007 14:39:46 GMT -6
... I do not think we are going to get much further forward with the Kanipe debate as there are clearly two different points of view and enough evidence/theory to justify either position as being possible. The truth or otherwise does not make a great deal of difference. If Kanipe was not a genuine messenger it makes Custer look slightly more inept as a commander who does not tell his subordinates what is happening or what he wants them to do. It also takes away a bit of the stick that John Gray and others use to beat up Benteen about being slow after being told to hurry. Since I personally do not think Benteen was being slow anyway that does not much effect my views. If Kanipe was a genuine messenger then it makes Mathey and McDougall look either devious or poor witnesses due to bad memory and faulty recollection. Personally I already think McDougall was a poor witness due to other failings so again the Kanipe truth impact is no big deal. Mike-- That is a very fair analysis, as well. I may have said something earlier as to the "strength" of my beliefs about this, so if I did, I will back off that strength just a bit. In other words, I shall be a bit more open-minded about it. "Jas. Watson's" advice about the man's earlier service (his post just above) is a very good way of approaching Kanipe as a soldier and as a man. I also completely agree w/ your analysis regarding Benteen [above]. That's a good observation. Custer, of course, we already realize should have been a hell of a lot more communicative. And I have a rather soft spot regarding McDougall: CPT Thomas Mower McDougall (Nicknamed “Micky Dougall”)—b. Ft Crawford, WI, or Prairie-du-Chien, WI, 21May45; d. Echo Lake Farm, near Brandon, VT, 3Jul1909. DOR: 15Dec75, #8 CPT on campaign. CO since Mar76. Former CO of Company E (for almost 5 years). Assigned to 7th Cavalry on 1Jan71. Had been promoted to 1LT in 1867. Originally an infantry officer w/ the 5th U.S. Volunteer Infantry, receiving a commission at the age of 17. Along w/ 2 EM—Ryan & Moore—he buried LT Hodgson. • Married Alice M. Sheldon (d. Hendersonville, NC, 8Mar1920), 21May72, in Spartanburg, SC. • His father was a former army doctor, BG (bvt) Charles McDougall, Surg., USA. • Cause of death was angina pectoris. • Funeral at Dahlgren Chapel, Georgetown University, 7Jul1909.• Buried in Arlington National Cemetery. • One of McDougall’s sisters—Josephine—was married to COL David Hillhouse Buel, who was murdered at Fort Leavenworth while trying to apprehend a deserter when the Seventh Cavalry was stationed there (1870). She later married Buel’s brother. [Kimber] If you notice up above, his funeral was at the Dahlgren Chapel at Georgetown University. That's in Washington, DC, and it is where I went to school. I have spent many, many hours in that chapel. It is small and it is beautiful. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Mar 26, 2007 15:27:50 GMT -6
Jas Kanipe would only have been required to report to the senior officer which would have been McDougall.So it is only McDougall's word that he did not receive a message.Recall that Benteen neglected to inform the packs of a dispatch from Custer.Now Benteen's supporters have argued that this was because Kanipe had returned to the packs with a similar message. Kanipe's predicment really begins when he meets Benteen.He has to have a cover story and that story is a message directing the packs forward to Custer.By falsifying such a message he compounds his crime of desertion with treachery.Just think about it, the last thing he needs is to draw attention to himself yet his tactic is to involve the force commander and two senior captains and to falsey direct a major component of the regiment when all he needed to do was to hobble his horse.As Fred would say come on use a bit of sense. Slan
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Post by BrokenSword on Mar 26, 2007 15:58:38 GMT -6
Any and Every-
Did Martini aka John Martin ever say anything about the Kanipe preceding him? I think that Martin was assigned to HQ that day and should have been aware (at least minimally) of other messengers.
M
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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 26, 2007 16:02:18 GMT -6
I'm not sure he would have only had to report to McDougall. McDougall was in charge of the escort but it was Mathey who was in charge of the train. Technically it was Mathey who he should have reported to--the escort was under the train command. Nevertheless neither officer recalled him reporting to either of them. You're right in that Kanipe's troubles began when running into Benteen... easily fixed with becoming a messenger to the packs--which is the direction I think he may have been wanting to be heading all along anyway. So Benteen assumed a message had already been delivered to the packs. Yes, falsifying a message and involving the officers would indeed compound his perfidity...which is precisely why he didn't deliver any messages. In other words the less said the better, and the vaguer the better. I actually think he had to say as much as he did afterwards only because GAC and company were killed to the last man and the whole thing became such a hot topic. Had that not happened (which he expected) his story would have faded into obscurity. Besides, he wasn't deserting only straggling--a big difference.
Jas~
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 26, 2007 16:09:38 GMT -6
I think Martini was of the opinion that he was the only orderly sent back. This did of course reinforce his "special status" as the one messenger sent from Custer.
If you care to beleive John Gray, he twists Martini's evidence at RCOI to support the idea that Kanipe was a messenger. Whilst I might personally think Kanipe was a messenger I do not buy John Gray's interpretation of Martini's testimony.
Actually McDougall was in overall command of the escort and the train so the message was for him and in his letters to WS Camp Kanipe says that is to whom he gave it. Mind you he wrote that to Camp in 1908 and McDougall died in 1909, although he did correspond with Camp himself that year. Kanipe was not called to the RCOI but he possibly read the transcripts in the newspapers. Most people of course might not have understood the significance of McDougall's testimony but Kanipe should have.
I repeat a question I asked earlier - does anybody know when the story that he came from Tom Custer emerged? It would be quite clever on Kanipe's part to realise that he could not claim it came from GAC if Martini was around to say he never saw it being given to Kanipe, who was not an orderly that day etc etc. However, if he already told someone it came from Tom earlier then that is less of a problem for him.
You know it occurs to me that we are more likely to find evidence that he was not a messenger, due to some slip up in what he said to whom, than we are to be able to be sure he was a messenger.
Poor old Daniel, it seems he cannot definitely win this argument, his best hope is a draw. I do think, however, that we should be careful in case some descendants of the man ever visit this type of forum. It could be distressing for them to hear their great grandpa might have been less than hero. That is partly why I still prefer to beleive he was a messenger unless there is absolute proof the other way.
Regards
Mike
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Post by d o harris on Mar 26, 2007 16:18:21 GMT -6
In all this discussion a find one thing curiously absent: Evidence. Real evidence that Kanipe was a skulker and a coward. All I have seen thus far is opinion.
Kanipe was a messenger to the pack train. What is the evidence he was not.
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Post by harpskiddie on Mar 26, 2007 16:19:21 GMT -6
If Knipe was not a messenger, then he could not have delivered the instruction to Benteen that Custer wanted him up ahead fast, and therefore Benteen can be held blameless for not obeying such an instruction.
Gordie
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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 26, 2007 16:26:43 GMT -6
>>Kanipe was a messenger to the pack train. What is the evidence he was not. <<
Perhaps the biggest bit of evidence is that no message was delivered. At least the intended recipients didn't recall of any.
Jas~
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Post by wild on Mar 26, 2007 16:52:39 GMT -6
Perhaps the biggest bit of evidence is that no message was delivered. At least the intended recipients didn't recall of any To have admitted receipt of such a message would have put McDougall in the same position as Benteen. Once again why go to such elaborate lenghts when all he had to do was hobble the horse?
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Post by harpskiddie on Mar 26, 2007 17:03:32 GMT -6
McDougall testified that he thought Mathey had received the message.
Gordie
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Post by BrokenSword on Mar 26, 2007 17:10:36 GMT -6
Thanks Mike-
I can see Martini wanting to preserve the aura of ‘special status’ and its prestige. Makes me think about Martini’s message and the note that Cooke scribbled down. As in two messages perhaps garbled into one. Scenario: Custer thinks, ‘I sent for the damn packs - WHERE ARE THEY?’ Custer says, “Bugler! Take a message to the pack train to BRING THE PACKS!” Custer thinking, ‘McDougall can get the ammo up here. Mathey can follow with the biscuits and beans.’ Custer says, “…And on the way, tell Captain Benteen to hurry up and GET HERE QUICK.” Martini nods and smiles with that ‘I’m confused - but okie dokie look’ then turns to go anyway. The usually efficient Cooke spots that and says, “Wait!” In extreme haste he scribbles the instructions - garbling them into a single confusing note and misspelling ‘packs’ as ’pacs’ in his haste. He hands the paper to Martini and says, “Here! Git! GO! FAST!”
What the heck… maybe?
M
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 26, 2007 17:11:15 GMT -6
Hi all
Let us be precise about this. McDougall actually says that a message was delivered but it came to Mathey not to him. These are his precise words:
Q: You received no notification to hurry up the pack train?
A: No, sir; I think Leut. Mathey got that order. He told me about it and I told him to hurry up. I was very anxious about it.
So McDougall actually says there was a message, he was very concerned about it but it came to Lt Mathey not him.
There you are then, clear as mud! Just like some other bits of McDougall evidence like him preparing to charge Reno Hill when he suddenly spots that they are cavalry troopers. Nothing about a message already getting to the train in the form of Lt Hare to speed two ammo mules. When he gets to Reno Hill he has a long conversation with Benteen but there is pretty good evidence that Benteen had already moved off etc etc. Another time he hears Custer's volleys on the Hill when he is talking to Godfrey, this has to be wrong according to most other accounts.
I would hate to condemn Kanipe on the basis of what McDougall did or did not remember.
Hi Broken Sword
Nice try but Custer could hardly have expected the packs to come into sight as he is galloping away from them!
I think the Martini message is quite clear in that it wanted Benteen to beef up the pack train escort and bring it on through whilst GAC is on his way to smash the sleeping village whilst all the warriors are off hunting or whatever. The packs need to be escorted in case the warriors are on their way back or hear the battle and return etc etc.
Regards
Mike
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Post by BrokenSword on Mar 26, 2007 17:40:14 GMT -6
Hello Mike
Like I said, 'Maybe.'
However; if you stand on the battlefield you can see that from the point at which Custer 'sent' Kanipe back, to the point from which he sent Martini - the approaching packs and escort could have been seen. He didn't gallop all that far.
McDougall and the ammo packs would have Benteen's three companies running interference for them. Reno had the 'hostiles' engaged and Mathey with the luggage to the rear of it all could fend for himself - in Custer's mind.
I'll chew on it some more.
Thanks - M
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