Re: They Wish They'd Said That...(and they will) « Reply #510 on Aug 16, 2012, 5:21pm »
Dan American medics are the best in the world,they give you an extra 20 years.Just look at the crocks posting in this parish. They gave the old guy [ my host] 5 pints of blood and orders to abandon the hard stuff.He told them to take the blood back. Nice of you to ask. Best wishes
The essesnce of command is timing, Mr. Cohill. A successful commander keeps his own counsel.
Joined: May 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 3,218 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Re: They Wish They'd Said That...(and they will) « Reply #513 on Aug 17, 2012, 8:50pm »
I knew I had a good example of infantry assuming and performing a cavalry mission, that were they a bit normal, would take the wind out of the sails of the Blather Brigade. Could not remember if the narative was in Hunter's "Galahad" or in Ogburn's "The Marauders". It turned out to be in the latter.
During the initial mission, the attack on Walawbum, the Intelligence and Reconnaissance Platoons of each of the three battalions were sent on a mission to flank the Japanese 18th Division. These three platoons under Logan Weston (3rd Bn), William Grissom (2nd Bn) and Sam Wilson (1st Bn) initially took the same route and then branched off down trails leading westward, first to discover where the flank of the enemy was then to withdraw and guard the passage of the main body as they moved around the hopefully discovered flank.
Now to put paid to all this infantry closeness bull crap, each of these platoons ended up some distance from the main body, the longest being Wilson's platoon at twenty two miles. The platoons from the second and third battalions made contact, withdrew and covered the passage of the main body. Wilson's platoon discovered the open flank, and finding that the radio would not work, mounted a horse, accompanied by another man rode the backtrail, reported what he had found, mounted again and returned to his platoon. Did I mention most of this was during the hours of darkness.
Long story short the three I & R platoons discovered the flank, covered the movement, and Walawbum fell,, forcing the 18th Division to withdraw.
I am sure Montrose is familiar with the name of Sam Wilson, a legend in his world.
Now this is specificly for Clair. I trust he will read it or be told about it, just to give the lie to all this nonsense about Benteen's First Sergeant. Sam Wilson joined the 116th Infantry (Stonewall Brigade) VAARNG at the age of 16 as a bugler. By age 18 he was a company First Sergeant. Note Clair that is two years. By age 19 he had completed OCS, served at Benning as an instructor and was on the trail to Walawbum as a 19 year old First Lieutenant. He retired as a Lieutenant General, and is still living.
Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 4,957 Location: Boulder, Colorado
Re: They Wish They'd Said That...(and they will) « Reply #514 on Aug 18, 2012, 12:02am »
Read about that in Tuchman's Stilwell book. God awful campaign, that was.
Somewhat amusingly, when the British were being overrun in 1941 about Singapore, they still had generals saying they needed to get men and horses down there to do god knows what in the jungle.
Wingate and Merrill would seem to have put that to rest. Stilwell himself marched a bunch of civvies and fat soldiers out of Burma into India and spent much of the war fighting the British who insisted that certain terrain was impassable and so they couldn't attack east, albeit the Japanese used it to cross west.
"The great enemy of truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived and dishonest – but the myth – persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Too often […] we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." JFK
The essesnce of command is timing, Mr. Cohill. A successful commander keeps his own counsel.
Joined: May 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 3,218 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Re: They Wish They'd Said That...(and they will) « Reply #515 on Aug 18, 2012, 10:25am »
DC: I would recommend both of the cited books. I would add to that list the finest of them all in my opinion "The Road Past Mandalay", part of a two volume military biography of the late John Masters who later in life retired to the States, and became a best selling novelist and screen play writer. The first volume is equally interesting "Bugles and the Tiger"which takes Masters from Sandhurst to the Indian Army's 4th Gurkha Rifles, and the Afghanistan border.
The whole point though in posting this is that the 5307 was given, actually given several cavalry type missions, and executed them in masterful fashion, although the effects of the campaign destroyed the health of the unit, and they had to be broken up following Myitkyina.
There is actually a part in "Road" where Masters goes into great detail of what he carried in his pack and on his person for battle, that I turned into my own personal before going to the field checklist.
« Last Edit: Aug 18, 2012, 10:37am by quincannon »
The essesnce of command is timing, Mr. Cohill. A successful commander keeps his own counsel.
Joined: May 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 3,218 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Re: They Wish They'd Said That...(and they will) « Reply #516 on Aug 18, 2012, 4:03pm »
Koegh (Not the real one) speaking just this afternoon on the Keogh (The real one) sector:
"Temporary holding position..... No real thought was given to standing and fighting for any length of time"
Now see this is one of the things you evidently don't learn at reenacting school. Montrose pointed recently to the two types of officers in the post ACW army, the few professionals, and the many amatures. This is a very good example, made to order to prove the point.
When a unit stops for ten minutes, ten hours, ten days, ten weeks, ten months, ten years, the unit must, if they are professionals assume they may have to fight from that position. This is not true just in the infantry minded among us but in all branches, and corps of the army including the Finance Corps. It is an act of faith, an automatic reaction to when a halt for any reason is called. A unit deploys for a tactical defense, and as long as they remain in that position they continue to improve it. It may start with something as simple a laying prone and seeing what kind of fields of fire you have, as time goes on you improve further. It is a never ending process as long as you remain on that position.
"No one ever expected indians to take advantage of an opening so quickly"
Duh, Double Duh. Again that is what sets reenactors and amateur post ACW army officers apart from the professionals. You respect the other guy's ability to react to any and all things you do. Those that don't end up dead. I suppose when you shoot blanks and everybody gets up and goes to the Bar B Q after a hard day "in the field" these things do not occur to you.
Keogh (Not the real one) finds "Keogh (the real one) difficult to unravel" Is that not a wonder?
Spending nearly a year of my life at the Infantry School I cannot recall any expressed opinion on the Custer fight by the staff, faculty, or students. So one wonders just where Keogh (not the real one) is getting the basis for his statement that in essence says the Infantry School has it all wrong. Was that the Infantry School at Fort Benning Georgia, or was it the Reenactor Infantry School, or are your telling your slobbering acolytes a little white fibberoo to enhanse your standing among that august body?
Re: They Wish They'd Said That...(and they will) « Reply #517 on Aug 18, 2012, 5:03pm »
Chuck, You may want to ease off on re-enactors in general. Sometimes it come down to common sense decisions and experience. I have no idea if Little Keogh has ever commanded re-enactment units in war games. I seem to remember that he often serves as staff or Headquarters escort. Perhaps it's not cavalry verses Infantry mindset--but staff verses line. Clair being a West Pointer most likely held far more staff positions than line. I could picture him riding into Rome with General Mark Clark,while the German army escapes. Take care, Larry
Koegh (Not the real one) speaking just this afternoon on the Keogh (The real one) sector:
"Temporary holding position..... No real thought was given to standing and fighting for any length of time"
Now see this is one of the things you evidently don't learn at reenacting school. Montrose pointed recently to the two types of officers in the post ACW army, the few professionals, and the many amatures. This is a very good example, made to order to prove the point.
When a unit stops for ten minutes, ten hours, ten days, ten weeks, ten months, ten years, the unit must, if they are professionals assume they may have to fight from that position. This is not true just in the infantry minded among us but in all branches, and corps of the army including the Finance Corps. It is an act of faith, an automatic reaction to when a halt for any reason is called. A unit deploys for a tactical defense, and as long as they remain in that position they continue to improve it. It may start with something as simple a laying prone and seeing what kind of fields of fire you have, as time goes on you improve further. It is a never ending process as long as you remain on that position.
"No one ever expected indians to take advantage of an opening so quickly"
Duh, Double Duh. Again that is what sets reenactors and amateur post ACW army officers apart from the professionals. You respect the other guy's ability to react to any and all things you do. Those that don't end up dead. I suppose when you shoot blanks and everybody gets up and goes to the Bar B Q after a hard day "in the field" these things do not occur to you.
Keogh (Not the real one) finds "Keogh (the real one) difficult to unravel" Is that not a wonder?
Spending nearly a year of my life at the Infantry School I cannot recall any expressed opinion on the Custer fight by the staff, faculty, or students. So one wonders just where Keogh (not the real one) is getting the basis for his statement that in essence says the Infantry School has it all wrong. Was that the Infantry School at Fort Benning Georgia, or was it the Reenactor Infantry School, or are your telling your slobbering acolytes a little white fibberoo to enhanse your standing among that august body?
Chuck, you have it all wrong as you have an infantry mindset. No helping you I'm afraid. Professionalism be damned!
However, while slamming the other guy, I'm afraid he did hit a salient point in that the Army did not respect the Indian's capabilities. Of course I'm reading your assessment of the other place's posts so I don't really know if they actually found a gold nugget amongst the gravel or not.
The essesnce of command is timing, Mr. Cohill. A successful commander keeps his own counsel.
Joined: May 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 3,218 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Re: They Wish They'd Said That...(and they will) « Reply #519 on Aug 18, 2012, 5:54pm »
Larry: I have nothing at all against reenactors (plural). I have heartburn with only one reenactor that thinks his weekend jaunts to field and woods makes him a soldier, that he is the dragoon, he both says he is and pretends to be. He was a schoolteacher from Queens, and the closest he ever got to the U S Army is supposedly a one year stint in ROTC. So reenactors are not my beef at all. It's when the schoolteacher referes to soldiers as us, instead of them, its when he thinks his experience reading a script and performing a set scenario gives him the same experience (notice I did not say period or book knowledge) as a soldier. You reenact. Have I ever directed anything at you, to belittle what you do. Never, but then you put your uniform away when the reenactments over, and go to your job or about your business. For him, life is one great big reenactment,. He has nothing else, and that's truely a shame. For him it is all to real. It's Walter Mitty meets Miniver Cheevy writ large.
The essesnce of command is timing, Mr. Cohill. A successful commander keeps his own counsel.
Joined: May 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 3,218 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Re: They Wish They'd Said That...(and they will) « Reply #520 on Aug 18, 2012, 6:00pm »
Billy: That nugget you speak of is there, and if you refer to one of Montrose's posts he clearly states that the post ACW officer corps were a few professionals, and the vast majority amateurs. Only an amateur makes that mistake. They may be getting paid as a professional, but if their thinking that way there is not a professional bone in their body. It's not what you think the enemy will do, it is what he can do. That is the bloody nugget, and everyone just says yeh but, Yeh but. Hell's fire man, more battles have been lost by thinking this way than any other cause in history, and these people were no exception. The battle was lost, with this attitude, before they left Lincoln.
Re: They Wish They'd Said That...(and they will) « Reply #521 on Aug 18, 2012, 6:09pm »
Chuck, I retired from re-enacting when I hit 40. Didn't think I could do an accurate portrayal of an average Private at that age. I was under the impression that you were referring to all re-enactors when it came to skill and knowledge. Sorry if I took it wrong. It's been a long hard week-as I had 25 teeth pulled by an Oral Surgeon last Saturday. Now back to my pain pill! Larry
The essesnce of command is timing, Mr. Cohill. A successful commander keeps his own counsel.
Joined: May 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 3,218 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Re: They Wish They'd Said That...(and they will) « Reply #522 on Aug 18, 2012, 6:21pm »
Larry: I knew you were having dental surgury at some time in the future. Did not know the future is now. I wish you well and a speedy recovery.
Actually I am not sure that what at least part of what you did was reenacting. Didn't you do free play war games? Not the same thing in my book. Now, I would suspect that the vast majority reenact for recreation, or to inform and educate. Nothing at all wrong with that, because those that do understand that it is a true reenactment. It's when this thing gets so out of control that it becomes who and what you are, as opposed to a small segment of your total life that you enjoy, then it becomes out of balance. As you know I build model ships. I enjoy it greatly, but it is far from who I am, and I make no pretentions to being a sailor, or for that matter a professional model builder. It's all in the perspective we place it. I was a soldier. I deeply resent someone equating what I did with putting on a uniform for a hobby, education, or enjoyment. That's the rub. It was one thing for George C Scott to portray Patton. I don't think he ever said he was Patton, or a general, or a private soldier. That's the difference.
Re: They Wish They'd Said That...(and they will) « Reply #523 on Aug 18, 2012, 6:30pm »
Thanks Chuck. Yes, I was more into war games (closed to the public) which would last three days. You carried everything with you-no returns to camp. I always enjoy reading your views on military history. What is your take on Custer's performance in the morning hours of Cedar Creek? Seems he let Rosser with a small brigade tie him down all morning.
The essesnce of command is timing, Mr. Cohill. A successful commander keeps his own counsel.
Joined: May 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 3,218 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Re: They Wish They'd Said That...(and they will) « Reply #524 on Aug 18, 2012, 6:36pm »
I would be out of my depth answering that Larry. My dad would be the guy to ask about anything that happened in the Valley.
Speaking generally though, it sometimes does not take much for a smaller force to impede a large one. Everyone has both good and bad days. Maybe this was just something as simple as it being a good day, vice a bad one. History is fiull of things that happen, just because.
![[Home]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif "[Home]")
![[New Topics]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/topics.png "[New Topics]")
![[Help]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif "[Help]")
![[Search]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif "[Search]")
![[Calendar]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/calendar.gif "[Calendar]")
![[Login]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif "[Login]")
![[Register]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/register.gif "[Register]")
![[Search This Thread]](http://images.proboards.com/search2.gif "[Search This Thread]")
![[Share Topic]](http://images.proboards.com/new/buttons/share.png "[Share Topic]")
![[Print]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif "[Print]")
Author
Logged
![[avatar]](http://www.darkendeavors.com/imbedded_images/dc.jpg "[avatar]")
![[homepage]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif "[homepage]")