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Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Agnes on Dec 1, 2004, 11:06am

Dear Everyone!

I'm Agnes and I'm curious for the family of the famous leader Crazy Horse. Therefore I started this topic. I warmly welcome any comment, correction, and observation.

I know the following:

The name of the father of Crazy Horse was Crazy Horse. After he transferred his name to his son, he was called as Worm. He was perhaps a Hunkpatila-Oglala.
He had at least two brother, Little Hawk and Spotted Crow. Also was Bull Head and Ashes the uncles of Crazy Horse?

Crazy Horse mother was perhaps a Minneconjou and her name was Rattle Blanket Woman. Perhaps she connected somehow to the famous Minniconjou chief Touch-the-Clouds, but it's not sure.

Crazy Horse had an unkown sister, who married with Little Killer's brother Club Man. They had 8 children, but she and her children all died before 1901.

Crazy Horse's little brother name was Little Hawk. He died in spring or summer of 1870. Perhaps he was never married?

Crazy Horse married three times. Firstly he was with No Water's Wife, Black Buffalo Woman, but they stayed together a few days. It said that the woman later gave birth a light haired girl, who still lived in the 1900's.
When he was 26 years old, he married Red Feather's sister, Black Shawl. By her he had one girl, Kokipapi, They-Are-Afraid-of-Her, who died when about 2-3 years old. When he surrendered at Fort Robinson, he married a young french-Cheyenne girl, Nellie Laravie, but Crazy Horse don't have child by her.

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by shatonska on Dec 3, 2004, 1:44pm

http://www.wintercount.org/archives/crazyhorse/

here are the sources on crazy horse life !
his mother was a brule' sister of spotted tail , touch the cloud is said to be a cousin , maybe a sister of crazy horse father was the wife of one horn !
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Don Blake on Dec 13, 2004, 10:56am

See the comments I made in the Touch the Clouds thread above.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by shatonska on Dec 14, 2004, 7:14am


Quote:
See the comments I made in the Touch the Clouds thread above.


i have read it , thanks , now i understand a little more !

there is a thing that i can't understand !

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by shatonska on Dec 14, 2004, 7:19am

my question is :

HE DOG and LOW DOG where two different men or the same person ?
until now i though he was the same man , reading the book "lakota noon" i learned that they where two differnet men !
maybe in other books there is a mixing of the words of these two man , all of these words linked to the great tashunka witko friend , he dog !!
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by shatonska on Dec 14, 2004, 7:44am

from he dog recollections :
"Crazy Horse's men did not take him back to his people but to the camp of his Uncle, Spotted Crow to be nursed."
http://www.wintercount.org/archives/crazyhorse/ch12.txt

this spotted crow is a chief , maybe tashunka's uncle little hawk or a brother of one horn ?

above you can read that maybe tashunka had a brother named spotted crow , but he dog in his interviews speaks only of a younger brother (little hawk) ,
so this name spotted crow probably was the name of tashunka's uncle (little hawk ) before he took the name of thasunka's dead brother (little hawk)!
this uncle (little hawk or spotted crow ) was a brother of worm or of one horn ? i think of worm , because is was an oglala chief not minniconjou
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by shatonska on Dec 14, 2004, 7:47am

another one interesting piece of interview :

"Bull Head, Ashes, and Spotted Crow, the Uncles of Crazy HOrse and the Head men of that band, worked for peace"

these three men where brother of worm ?
to many questions !
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Youlanda Percifield on Apr 25, 2005, 12:41am

The third wifes name was Nellie Larabee, according to the book I read. It also had a picture of her in it. I found This interesting as my great grandfather was Robert Henry Larabee, son of Charlie Edward Larabee, whose father was Venton Larabee. I wondered about a kinship, cousins maybe. I don't remember the name of the Author but the Book was about Plains Indians, I own the book and have it loaned out to a friend of mine. It also has a picture of one of his great grandsons.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Don Blake on Apr 25, 2005, 4:25am

He didn't have any children by Larabee/Larabie/Laravie. The family were, I believe, associated with the Cheyenne rather than the Lakota. Maybe I'm wrong on that point, but in the Crazy Horse Ledger, they're listed among the Cheyenne.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Youlanda Percifield on Apr 25, 2005, 4:18pm

I appologize to you for it sounding as if he did have a any children with her, I was making a statement that there was a picture of one of his great grand sons in the book I don't know by which wives he had children with. It the title just said the man was his great grand son. I understand that he was only with her a short while before he was killed. Then she married Greasing Hand who then changed his name to Crazy Horse as well. I would not want to offend anyone by inadvertantly misrepresenting what I read or saw in the book. I believe in documentation myself. I was interested in exactly who her parents were as to which of my Great Grandfathers Uncles was her father. If there was a blood relation at all, a mild curiousity per say.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Ephriam Dickson on Apr 25, 2005, 9:09pm

Nellie was the daughter of Joseph Larabee (Laravee, Larvie, etc.) or Joe Hunska (Long Joe) as he was known. He married twice. His first wife was a Cheyenne with whom he had four daughters, including Nellie. He later married Susan Metcalf and had five or six sons, including: Phil, Alex, Bill, Tom, Dick. While the family is listed among the Cheyenne in the 1876 census, they remained among the Oglala when the Cheyenne were shipped south to Indian Territory in 1877. They lived on Pine Ridge Reservation in later years and there were many descendents.

Ephriam
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Don Blake on Apr 26, 2005, 12:37pm

Do you think this where the stories about Crazy Horse having a Cheyenne wife spring from? I've seen this referred to a few times, although the only one I can put my finger on at the moment is Edgar Stewart's entry for Crazy Horse in the Reader's Encyclopedia of the American West , edited by Howard Lamar (first edition) and even this states she was his first wife.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Youlanda Percifield on Apr 26, 2005, 4:34pm

Thank you so much for this information, it explains some things to me. I find my line of Larabee's in Ellis County Oklahoma on early 1900's census records. Venton Larabee married Amanda Wade in Montgomery County, Illinois December 2. 1868. I got this info. off of Ancestory. com. So it maybe that Venton and Joseph were cousins or brothers. How interesting. Venton was in the Civil War his enlistment date was November 22, 1861 in Illinois.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Ephriam Dickson on Apr 26, 2005, 9:55pm

I do not know where the information that Black Shawl was a Cheyenne comes from originally. Some writers have not always double-checked their sources; or they have quoted other misinformation.

I do think it is important however to remember that the line between being a Cheyenne and being an Oglala was very fuzzy. After several generations of living together, there were extensive intermarrying. Most could claim relatives (and therefore membership) in either tribe. In fact, there was an entire band of Cheyenne that settled at Pine Ridge and by the 1930's most could not even speak Cheyenne any longer and they clearly considered themselves Oglala. In fact, if you read Joe Staria's book, The Dull Knifes of Pine Ridge, there is not a clear distinction between Cheyenne and Oglala, despite Dull Knife's original prominence as a Cheyenne leader. Just interesting...

e
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Youlanda Percifield on Apr 27, 2005, 12:03am

I had this discussion with my Aunt a few days ago about whether Nellie Larabee was Cheyenne or Oglala. She said that in the book that she read she was Oglala. I told her about reading here she was Cheyenne. It makes it much clearer to me now.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by csb on Nov 7, 2005, 3:50pm

Nuts!!! The Larabees were Choctaw.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Dietmar on Nov 8, 2005, 6:06am

As always, Richard Hardorff´s book "The death of Crazy Horse" gives a lot of information:
"Helen "Nellie" Laravie. Born along the South Platte about 1860 she was one of four daughters of Joseph Laravie, a french trader, and a southern Cheyenne woman. Among her mother´s people, Helen Laravie was known as Chi-Chi. In 1878 she settled among the Wajaje band of Lip near Eagle Nest Butte on Pine Ridge and was known among the Lakotas as Ista Gli Win `Brown Eyes Woman´."
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Nov 8, 2005, 6:56am

I believe Crazy Horse was not looking for a wife once he was on the reservation. Some of his friends thought it would be better for him if he took a wife and stopped thinking about what he could do to help his people. CH reluctantly accepted Nellie as a wife.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Agnes on Nov 9, 2005, 8:18am

Dear Everyone!

I saw her picture in the book "The Death of Crazy Horse" and for me that picture not shows Helen Laravie but rather a Winnebago or Omaha woman. Her costume more likely made in the Prairie fashion.

Sincerely:
Agnes
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Ephriam Dickson on Nov 11, 2005, 10:15am

Agnes:

You are correct. The photograph that has been published as Nellie Laravie is incorrectly attributed. In fact, it was taken earlier, possibly by photographer James H. Hamilton, who produced images among the Winnebago, Omaha and others around 1870-72.

Ephriam
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Agnes on Nov 12, 2005, 5:25am

Dear Ephriam!

Thanks for the info!
I think Hardorff not too accurate in the identification of the photographs. He labeled Slow Bull as He Dog and I think some photos not made in Washington 1877, such as the portrait of American Horse also.

But there's a question, if the author made such mistake how reliable the book he wrote? I like it because there's also capsule biographies about some persons. For example he mentioned Yellow Bear as Oyuhpe Oglala, but I found his name on Colhoff list as the leader of the Tapisleca (Spleen band). Perhaps he was really an Oyuhpe and later became Tapisleca.

Sincerely:
Agnes
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Dan on Nov 14, 2005, 10:26pm

Is there any info on the living decendants of Crazy Horse???
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by markland on Nov 15, 2005, 8:15am

Agnes, in speaking with some authors regarding mis-labeled photos, it oftimes is as much the editor's fault as it is the author's and by the time the author discovers it, it is much too late.

Billy
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by Ephriam Dickson on Nov 15, 2005, 4:19pm

Agnes:

I think Hardorff's work is generally reliable. My only complaint is that he usually does not cite where the information in his footnotes came from. This makes it difficult to go back and verify.

I agree that editors sometimes make mistakes about photographs; but I also find that many authors do as well. It takes extra research to verify a photograph's identification and sometimes it is easier to just trust what was originally written. In the case of the Short Bull photograph mislabeled as He Dog, that is not Hardorff's fault. The original photograph he used (taken by D. S. Mitchell in 1877) was pasted inside the Bourke diaries -- Bourke is the one who mislabeled it as He Dog. Hardorff did not catch that it had been mislabeled and used Bourke's identification.

Ephriam
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by agnes on Dec 1, 2005, 10:23am

Dear Markland and Ephriam!

Thanks the informations!

Sincerely:
Agnes
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by shatonska on Feb 22, 2006, 2:08pm

carldupree

Hump is the Hump leader of a minneconjou band at the little big horn fight ?

High back bone was related to this family ?

in Hyde red could's folk there is a Crazy horse listed among Oglalas in the early 800 , Crazy Horses uncles were chief in the oyukpe oglala , maybe their origin is saone but they were oglala
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by shawn on Feb 22, 2006, 2:48pm

Has anyone seen "dream keeper?" the gansters in the movie make reference to a "Two Bulls." Ive worked with a Two Bulls, and she claimed to be a direct descendant of Crazy Horse. This was in 1988.

Shawn
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by silverwolf on Feb 28, 2006, 10:18pm

I am new to lbha, so bear with me if I don't understand this system. I am looking for information on Little Hawk, the half brother of Crazy Horse. I understand he died young, before the battle of Little BigHorn. I would love to know more about him (Little Hawk), how and where he died, whether he was married, and if there are any photographs of him. Any details of his relationship with Crazy Horse would also be appreciated.
Many thanks.
Mitakuye O'Yasin
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by admin on Mar 1, 2006, 9:56am

Welcome to our boards!

If you will look down the list of the Northern Plains Indians board (this one), you will see a thread called Chief Little Hawk Photo and Information. I believe he is the man you are looking for.

Diane
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by grahamew on Mar 1, 2006, 11:57am

The Little Hawk in the other thread is CH's uncle.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by admin on Mar 1, 2006, 5:07pm

And CH also had a brother named Little Hawk? Confusing!

Thanks for the clarification.

Diane
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by karl on Mar 2, 2006, 6:02am

the halfbrother of crazy horse,little hawk was born in
1846(?) and killed on a raid in 1870.worm,his father
said by the shoshone.
but all other statements i had heard of said by some
white miners.
he was the son of one of spotted tails sisters.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Mar 2, 2006, 7:41am

CH's friend Hump (High Breast, killed by Shoshoni 1871) is a different Hump (High Back Bone) from the one who fought white trappers/traders with CH in 1874 and joined SB at the LBH and later refused to become a "progressive" Indian on the reservation and resisted all attempts to become "white"
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by kingsleybray on Mar 8, 2006, 3:47pm

NOTES ON THE CRAZY HORSE GENEALOGY: PART 1

Prepared by

KINGSLEY M. BRAY





















I'm posting my notes on the genealogy of Crazy Horse to supplement Carl Dupree's important contribution and to further the discussion. This is a work in progress, and I continue to update the information.

Kingsley Bray, 8th February 2006.


Crazy Horse: the Miniconjou Connection


Crazy Horse’s Mother, Rattle Blanket Woman

Several of the more detailed accounts of Crazy Horse's family background, coming from informed individuals, relatives and contemporaries, state that Crazy Horse's mother was a Miniconjou, e.g.

ź Horn Chips, interviewed by Judge Eli S. Ricker, February 14, 1907 (Ricker Papers, NSHS, Tablet 18): "Crazy Horse's mother was a Minneconjou, but Chips does not know her name."
ź He Dog statement, through Joseph Eagle Hawk, in Robert A. Clark, ed., The Killing of Chief Crazy Horse, p. 68: "His mother was a Minikowoju Sioux."
ź William Garnett to V. T. McGillycuddy, March 6, 1922 (in ibid, p. 109): "his mother was a Minni-ko-wo-jun"; reiterated in same to same, April 21, 1926 (ibid, p. 115): "his mother was a Mni-Ko-Wo-Ju", adding that: "I think he [Touch the Clouds, Miniconjou chief] was a relative of the mother of Crazy Horse, but I have been unable to find any one who knows for sure." [Robert A. Clark, ed. The Killing of Chief Crazy Horse, p. 115]

Mrs Eagle Horse, a granddaughter of this woman (the daughter of Crazy Horse's sister), gave her grandmother's name as Rattle Blanket Woman [Walter M. Camp MSS, University of Indiana Library, p. 271]. Unfortunately, Mrs Eagle Horse (or Camp) confused matters by stating that Rattle Blanket Woman was an Oglala.

Modern Lakota informants agree that Crazy Horse's mother was a Miniconjou, coming from a prominent family. They confirm Mrs Eagle Horse’s statement that the mother was named Rattle Blanket Woman, Ta-sina Hlahla Win. Miniconjou elders concur, stating (to Chris Ravenshead) that the woman committed suicide, and adding that previous generations had been unwilling to discuss the family tragedy. Victor Douville, Lakota Studies Dept, Sinte Gleska University, stated (conversation with author) that Rattle Blanket Woman was a Miniconjou, belonging to the Aske band. Elaine Quiver, descended from a sister of Rattle Blanket Woman, stated (conversation with the author) that Rattle Blanket Woman’s family was Miniconjou. Ellen In the Woods (statement made for Jack Meister) stated that Rattle Blanket Woman was a Miniconjou.

According to genealogical information obtained in 1986, Rattle Blanket Woman's parents were Runs After Enemy and White Water (Under Water) [Woman]. This same information reported two full sisters of Rattle Blanket Woman, Looks At Her and Good Looking Woman, also identifying these women's husbands and details on descendants. [Lakota Times, November 19, 1986.] Elaine Quiver has confirmed to me the details of this genealogy. More recently, statements made in connection with the Clown family legal claim have asserted that Rattle Blanket Woman and the above named sisters were daughters of Black Bull (Black Buffalo), 1760-1815, who was a chief met by Lewis & Clark and recognized by them as the principal chief of the Sicangu Lakota. Other children of Black Bull included One Horn (painted by Catlin in 1832; killed by a buffalo bull in 1835), and Lone Horn (the Miniconjou principal chief, died 1875/6), according to this account.

Rattle Blanket Woman certainly belonged to an extensive and well-connected family. We can adduce further evidence to identify more of her 'brothers' and 'sisters' - always with the rider that these kinship terms may reflect relationships that Euro-Americans recognize as cousins or even more distant blood and affinal relations. In some cases, such terms may refer to ceremonial 'fictive' relationships like the ritual adoptive status of hunka.

One Miniconjou relative of Crazy Horse's was certainly Touch the Clouds (ca. 1836-1905), son of the tribal head chief Lone Horn II (ca. 1814-76). According to Charles Eastman, Touch the Clouds and Crazy Horse were cousins [Indian Heroes and Great Chieftains, p. 104]. This has led to speculation that Rattle Blanket Woman was a kinswoman of Lone Horn. The scenario propounded above, whereby Rattle Blanket Woman and Lone Horn were full-brother and sister, would dovetail with such speculation. On the other hand, Elaine Quiver (statements to KMB and Jack Meister, November 2001) stated that Rattle Blanket Woman and the mother (rather than father) of Touch the Clouds (i.e. the wife of Lone Horn) were related, perhaps as cousins. Given Lakota prescriptions against marrying kin, these two explanations seem mutually exclusive. Although it does not clear up the confusion entirely, we have a statement from the Touch the Clouds’ family that confirms a very close relationship to Crazy Horse. According to an affidavit statement (in South Dakota Historical Society) by Touch the Clouds' son, Amos Charging First, Touch the Clouds addressed Crazy Horse as his "brother", consistent in the kinship scheme with a relationship through either his father's brother or his mother's sister.

There seems to be no unequivocal contemporary document that explicitly identifies Crazy Horse’s mother as a Miniconjou. However, since even rudimentary census counts of Lakota bands did not begin until thirty years after Rattle Blanket Woman’s tragic death, this is not surprising. She died too early to be named on allotment records, introduced in the early 20th Century, which routinely identified the allotee’s parents.

However, I am confident that, while further research may clarify the confusing details of family links, Crazy Horse’s mother was a Miniconjou. She was Rattle Blanket Woman, born about 1814, and married to Crazy Horse’s father Worm about 1836. She bore a daughter, who seems to have been named Looks At Her (presumably after her aunt; in the Lakota kinship scheme another mother), in ca. 1837; and then bore her famous son Crazy Horse (known in childhood as Curly Hair) in the early fall of 1840. She and her husband, however, fell into marital difficulties. Deeply unhappy, Rattle Blanket Woman hanged herself at the end of 1844. This left profound emotional scars on her four-year old son.

Rattle Blanket Woman and the Miniconjou-Oyuhkpe Band Connection

One of the major Oglala bands of the 19th Century was the Oyuhkpe, which settled on Pine Ridge Reservation in the Wounded Knee District. In the 19th Century its great leaders included such chiefs as Tobacco, White Plume, Black Fox, the latter’s son Kicking Bear, and Big Road – in every case men with strong links to the Northern Lakota divisions. The band has always had very strong Miniconjou connections. It is my belief that the Oyuhkpe band actually was part of the Miniconjou oyate for much of the period 1760-1830. Subsequently they shifted back to the Oglala circle, but continued to maintain very strong Northern Lakota links – especially Miniconjou, but also to the Itazipco and Hunkpapa – until the reservation system terminated the old migratory way of life. Crazy Horse had very strong ties to this band – indeed an agency document from 1874 states that he was an Oyuhkpe. One Oyuhkpe sub-band was known as the Wakan or Sacred band (it may be the outfit to which Kicking Bear’s family belonged). My reconstruction of early Lakota history suggests that this was a very conservative band, with strong links to the Calf Pipe Keepers; sister tiyospaye existed among the Itazipco and Hunkpapa. Crazy Horse had an intimate connection to this tiyospaye. When he married in 1870, it was an Oyuhkpe woman (Black Shawl) from the Big Road tiyospaye that he took as wife.

Two statements explicitly identify links between Rattle Blanket Woman’s family and Oyuhkpe band members. One statement identifies a 'sister' of Rattle Blanket Woman. The mother of the Oglala war-leader Kicking Bear, prominent in the Ghost Dance of 1890, is said by descendants to have been the sister of Crazy Horse's mother (David Humphreys Miller, Ghost Dance, 288). This woman was called Iron Cedar Woman, a name we shall see recurring in the genealogy. Probably born about the early 1820's, Iron Cedar Woman became the younger or second wife of Black Fox (aka Cut Forehead), a headman in the Oglala Oyuhkpe band. Her five children included Kicking Bear (born about 1846), Flying Hawk (born 1852), and Black Fox II. All of these sons were close comrades of Crazy Horse in their adult life. As sons of a woman Crazy Horse would have addressed as 'mother', they would have been classified in the Lakota kinship scheme as his 'younger brothers', or sunka. Conversely, they would have addressed Crazy Horse as ciye, or 'elder brother'. (Iron Cedar Woman's husband fathered a further eight children by his first wife.)

Another close female relative of Rattle Blanket Woman can be adduced from the memories of Eagle Elk. Like Kicking Bear, Eagle Elk was born into the Oyuhkpe band. Crazy Horse, stated Eagle Elk, "chose to call me 'cousin' [tahansi] from the marriage of his mother." Defining the relationship more closely, Eagle Elk stated that: "My father married Crazy Horse's aunt." (Eagle Elk and Crazy Horse were also related through their fathers, who were themselves "cousins".) A distinction is here evident which suggests that Rattle Blanket Woman and Eagle Elk's mother, Good Plume, were cousins (sicepansi) rather than full sisters. Good Plume's family was "from near Sisseton", suggesting antecedents among the Upper Council Santees - a fact confirmed by the family's visits to "Sisseton" (probably the Upper Agency in Minnesota). [Eagle Elk-John G. Neihardt Interviews, 1944, Missouri Historical Society] In respect of Crazy Horse's veneration of his mother's memory, it is worth noting that Eagle Elk was born in 1851, seven years after the suicide of Rattle Blanket Woman. His 'choosing' to call Eagle Elk 'cousin' was, therefore, an honoring of his mother, suggesting something of the deep bond between mother and son.

Knowing the strength of the links between the Oyuhkpe band and the Miniconjou, I believe that these Oyuhkpe links for Rattle Blanket Woman strengthen the case for her Miniconjou background.


The Corn Family and Crazy Horse’s step-mothers: a second Miniconjou Connection

New information from the Clown family has uncovered a wealth of genealogical data, much of it confusing and contradictory, but rooted in the fundamental fact that Julia Iron Cedar Clown (born ca. 1860) knew Crazy Horse as her ‘brother’. Although much of this evidence is highly contentious, I do not think that she was a biological sister in the European sense. However, in a Lakota sense she clearly was very closely related. My reading of this evidence is as follows.

The Miniconjou chief Corn or Corn Man, painted by Catlin in 1832, was the father of a large family. In 1839 Corn Man was noted by Nicollet as one of five Miniconjou band chiefs. Corn fathered Red Legs or Red Leggings Woman, and at least three other named children: a son, Bull Head, and two daughters, Iron Between Horns and Kills Enemy, both of whom "were married to Crazy Horse". By her marriage to a man named Woman Breast, Red Legs had the following children: Julia Iron Cedar, Leo Combing, James Bear Pipe, Peter Wolf, and Coming Home Last.

Both of the other daughters, Iron Between Horns and Kills Enemy, “were married to Crazy Horse”. The latter is Worm, or Old Man Crazy Horse, the father of the famous war leader. This gains some support by the appearance of Bull Head I as a 'brother' to the co-wives, which has always been a keystone of my understanding of the Miniconjou dimension to the Crazy Horse genealogy.

Three men identified as Crazy Horse's "uncles" (leksi) were probably men whom Iron Between Horns and Kills Enemy called their younger brothers. By 1870 they were minor headmen among the Miniconjous, and it was in their camp that Crazy Horse recuperated after the shooting by No Water. In probable order of age, these uncles were Ashes (born before ca. 1830: killed at Wounded Knee, 1890?); Bull Head (born ca. 1831); and Spotted Crow (born ca. 1833). Bull Head is remembered by the Clown family as a brother to Crazy Horse’s step-mothers.

Men bearing the two latter names signed the Land Agreement at Cheyenne River in 1889 as Signatory numbers 561 and 575, respectively. Ashes visited Red Cloud Agency in May 1873, and for rationing purposes was credited with leading four lodges of Miniconjous at Red Cloud the following winter, 1873-74. In 1877, He Dog recalled, Crazy Horse's uncle Spotted Crow was one of the advisers who persuaded him against going to Washington with the Lakota delegation from Red Cloud Agency. [Eleanor S. Hinman, 'Oglala Sources on the Life of Crazy Horse’.]

I have seen copies of heirship files from Cheyenne River which further state that Bull Head had another brother, Has Horns, whose son was named Charles Corn (1853-1939) – surely because his grandfather was the chief Corn Man.

Re Julia Iron Cedar calling Crazy Horse her brother (presumably elder brother, tiblo): it is worth observing that the above scenario creates a plausible context. Julia would have addressed any sisters of her mother as 'mother', and any children of those sisters as her own brothers and sisters. Thus she would reckon Young Crazy Horse as her brother, consistent with statements from family tradition.

There was a Young Bull Head, born ca. 1852, and noted in the 1887 Rosebud Agency Census as enrolled in the Northern Band - Miniconjous and Sans Arcs who had surrendered at Spotted Tail Agency in 1877. This younger Bull Head was a close associate of Crazy Horse's, because Horn Chips told Judge Eli S. Ricker in 1907 that the feather Crazy Horse wore "to his honor" (probably an eagle down plume marking his status as one of the class of hunkayapi) was then owned by Bull Head, who had relocated to Cheyenne River.

Regarding a link between the families of Rattle Blanket Woman and Iron Between Horns and Kills Enemy, the step-mothers of Crazy Horse are frequently identified as ‘sisters’ of Rattle Blanket Woman. Full sisterhood seems to be ruled out. Again, we need to establish just what the family connection was, but I suggest that in a European sense these women may have been cousins.


The Sicangu Connection

ź Crazy Horse's "mother was Spotted Tail's sister." Hyde, Red Cloud's Folk, p. 298 n.
ź " 'Spotted Tail' said that 'Crazy Horse' was his nephew": Bourke, On the Border with Crook, p. 396.
ź "Was Crazy Horse related to Spotted Tail?/Answer [by Red Feather] - I don't know."
ź Gathers The Grapes and Corn (Woman) – two sisters of Spotted Tail, married Worm after the death of Rattle Blanket Woman (Donovin Sprague statement to KMB, January 13, 2004)

The above evidence seems to contradict the Miniconjou connection we have established for Crazy Horse’s mother and step-mothers. However, Victor Douville was emphatic that Spotted Tail’s family had extensive northern links (through the Aske band lineage, for which see below), and that Crazy Horse’s step-mothers were Miniconjou. The immediate family background of Spotted Tail (1823-81) is as follows: his father was a Sihasapa (which confirms some northern connection); while his mother belonged to the leading family of the Wazhazha band, which was usually associated with the Sicangu. While details surely remain to be fully clarified, I feel that Donovin’s statement, which again explicitly links the name Corn to Crazy Horse’s step-mothers, is fundamental in establishing a link. I suggest that – once more – these women were not biological or full-sisters to Spotted Tail. A connection would work like this:

A woman that Spotted Tail called ‘mother’, perhaps a sister of his biological mother Walks With the Pipe, married Miniconjou chief Corn. Their children would have been ‘brothers’ and ‘sisters’ to Spotted Tail.

I therefore suggest that Gathers The Grapes and Corn are the same women as Iron Between Horns and Kills Enemy (although I am not sure which one corresponds to which!).

After Crazy Horse’s death his father and stepmother/s settled at Rosebud, hinting that there was a definite Sicangu connection. Worm died there, about 1882. One of his wives (Iron Between Horns?) died at the home of a kinsman, Felix Bald Eagle, about 1884. Like Worm, she was buried along Rosebud Creek. Although very far from clear, it may be that the other wife (Kills Enemy?) died a few days after Crazy Horse, in September 1877. According to the diary of Spotted Tail agent Jesse Lee, on September 17, “Crazy Horse’s wife died, and her body was placed on the platform beside his body”. Neither of young Crazy Horse’s wives (Black Shawl and Nellie Larabee) died at this time: the reference may be to the wife of Old Man Crazy Horse.



The Oglala Connection


Crazy Horse had very close relationships with the Miniconjou. At key transitions in his life – in 1851-52, in 1858, and in 1870 – he chose to make protracted stays with the people of his mother and step-mothers. He obviously felt comfortable there, in a reassuring environment. By contrast, he seems to have been distinctly uncomfortable during his known stays among the Sicangu people of Spotted Tail. However, most of his life was spent among the Oglala, where he and his father enjoyed a prominent place in the Hunkpatila band, led by the Man Afraid of His Horse dynasty of chiefs.

Worm may have had northern antecedents – some suggest a Miniconjou connection for his family too; Victor Douville suggested to me a possible link to the Itazipco – but his home was among the Oglala. The biographical statement by Joseph Eagle Hawk (‘son’ of He Dog) states plainly that “Crazy Horse’s father is an original Oglala Sioux, and his mother is from Cheyenne River . . .” (‘History of Crazy Horse’, typescript, p. 11, Museum of the Fur Trade, Chadron, Neb.) .

The Oglala identification is borne out by the family connection to Black Elk. According to Nicholas Black Elk: “Crazy Horse’s grandfather and Black Elk’s grandfather [Black Elk II] were two of five brothers”, and were sons of Black Elk I [born ca. 1760?]: see Sixth Grandfather p. 323. According to Horn Chips (1907 interview with Judge E. S. Ricker), and Harvey White Woman (descendant of Little Hawk, March 2004 statement to Jack Meister), the father of Worm was Makes the Song. Harvey and Johnson Holy Rock (statement March 10, 2004) stated that Makes the Song was a holy man. He must have been born ca. 1785-90, and he and his first wife (name unknown?) had at least three children: Worm (born ca. 1811), Big Woman (born ca. 1815), and a son, killed in battle 1844, who may be the Male Crow (Kangi Bloka) of the Winter Counts. Later Makes the Song married a younger wife, Good-Haired Otter Woman (Ptan-Hin-Waste-Win), born ca. 1810, who bore Little Hawk (Cetan Ciqala, aka Long Face, Ite Hanska), born ca. 1836. This man, although only four years older than the famous Crazy Horse, would have been one of his ate or ‘fathers’.

Kingsley Bray
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by kingsleybray on Mar 8, 2006, 3:52pm

NOTES ON THE CRAZY HORSE GENEALOGY
by
KINGSLEY M. BRAY
PART 2:
MISCELLANEOUS NOTES ON THE CRAZY HORSE-MINICONJOU CONNECTION


This section is simply a collection of notes and observations on individuals that seem to bear out the Crazy Horse-Miniconjou connection.

Among the Heads of Lodges listing for Cheyenne River Agency, census of November 1871, is Miniconjou Lodge Head No. 53, "The Bull that is lying on the ground". This name seems equivalent to Bull Lays on Ground, rated as married to Looks At Her, Rattle Blanket Woman's sister.

No. 117 is "The bull Head" - possibly one of Crazy Horse's uncles.

Among the signatories to the 1889 Crook Land Agreement at Cheyenne River is listed, at no. 428, "Ta tank moka gliyuska, Bull Lays Down", age 44, i.e. born ca. 1845. The form is correctly Tatanka Maka Gliyuska, Bull Lays on Earth. This name seems equivalent to Bull Lays on Ground, rated as married to Looks At Her, Rattle Blanket Woman's sister.
Signatory no. 457 is "Wambli Iytanka, Setting Eagle No. 1", age 60, i.e. born ca. 1829.
Signatory 484 is "Heyaka cepa, Fat Clown", age 45, i.e. born ca. 1844 - possibly related to Amos Clown.
Signatory no. 519 is "Moto Mrnni opta kinyan, Bear Flying over Water", age 65, i.e. born ca. 1824. This man was a Scout in Crazy Horse's Scout Co. during spring/summer 1877 (Co. E: May-June; Co. C: July onward).
Signatory no. 530 is "Heyoka, Clown", age 24 (born ca. 1865), possibly the Amos Clown who married Crazy Horse's 'sister' Julia Iron Cedar. This man was Sans Arc.
Signatory no. 561 is "Tatanka Pa, Bull Head", age 58, i.e. born ca. 1831 - possibly one of Crazy Horse's 'uncles'.
Signatory no. 575 is "Kangi glixka, Spotted Crow", age 56, i.e. born 1833 - possibly another of Crazy Horse's 'uncles'.
Signatory no. 635 is "Ska Agli, Spotted Crow or Brings White", age 33, i.e. born ca. 1856 - possibly a son or relative of Spotted Crow (no. 575).


The Rosebud Agency Census of 1887 includes, among the Northern Band, "Crazy Horses Mother", age 90, i.e. born ca. 1797. (Possibly the mother of Worm, i.e. Old man Crazy Horse?)
Also in the Northern Band is listed Young Bull Head, age 35, i.e. born ca. 1852. This is possibly the half-brother of Julia Iron Cedar, a son of Woman Breast by a different wife than Julia's mother.

On October 20, 1994, Chris Ravenshead told me (phone conversation) that: "A woman who was for a while one of [Joseph] White Bull's wives was called Esther Smoking Woman. She had no other family at Cheyenne River, and some believe that she was a sister of Crazy Horse's. In her old age (she died before Chris came out [in the late 1970's]) she lived with the Eagle Chasing family." Vestal notes that "Smoky Woman" married White Bull in 1907, but that the marriage was short-lived (Vestal, Warpath, p. 241). The Eagle Chasing family belonged originally to the Aske band. In a more recent conversation, Chris told me that Esther Smoking Woman, the "sister" of Crazy Horse, died in the 1930's at Cherry Creek, where the Eagle Chasing family were settled.


Information on Corn Man (Oglala): I am satisfied that the 'Oglala' Corn Man (floruit 1871-1910) was definitely related to the Miniconjou chief Corn/Corn Man I (floruit 1832-39), probably father-son. Consider the following census information:

ź June 1871, Corn Man listed at Fort Laramie council, next to Two Buffaloes (cf. Two Bulls below).
ź December 1871, Corn Man living at Red Cloud Agency, classified as "Ogallalla", head of four lodges, 32 people, has received 1871 annuity goods.
ź March, 1874: Red Cloud Agency Lodge tally (for ration issue) for winter 1873-74 lists Corn Man as head of five lodges, in Oyukhpe ("Oucapees") band.
ź March, 1874: Red Cloud Agency Census lists Corn Man, family total 8 people.
ź January 1, 1875: Spotted Tail Agency census lists Corn, family total 16 people.
ź November 1876, Red Cloud Agency Census: Corn listed as one of four men in lodge no. 56 of Oglala Loafer band (other men: Kills the Enemy; Day; Wolf on Hill). Please note co-occurrence of Day, who is listed near High Bear in Dec. 1872 Cheyenne River Agency farming list.
ź December 29, 1876: Cheyenne River Agency census for Miniconjous includes (p. 140) family led by High Bear: men include The Corn, and Select or Coffee (also Shows Dress, The Knife Scabbard, and Up the Creek). Of these only High Bear (2 Women, 3 Children) and Up the Creek (3 Women, 1 Child) has dependents listed. This is significant because of the co-occurrence of Coffee (cf. Spotted Tail Agency Census for May-June and December 1877).*
ź May 15, 1877: "Corn Man's Wife and daughter" listed as at Red Cloud on 4-day pass from Spotted Tail Agency, pass issued May 10 (sic)
ź May-June 1877: Spotted Tail Agency Census lists in Brule Band household consisting of three men: Corn Man, Coffee, and (as interlinear addition) Two Bull, plus these relatives: Corn Man has 4 Women, 7 Boys, 3 Girls, for a total of 16 (evidently including Two Bull); Coffee has 1 Woman, 1 Boy, for a total of 3.
ź December 1877: Spotted Tail Agency census (p. 77) lists in Brule band household consisting of Corn Man (head of family), plus 5 women, 3 Boys, 4 Girls; and Two Bull, plus 2 Women, 1 Boy, for a total of 17. (Nb Coffee is listed separately in same band, plus 1 Woman, plus man Call Relation, for a total of 3.)
ź October 26, 1878, Spotted Tail Agency Census (p. 126) lists Corn Man/Two Bull family as among Brules who have left the agency since the census of December 31, 1877; destination not recorded.
ź 1890 Pine Ridge Census: lists family of Corn Man, age 68 (born 1822), wife Iron Leg (born 1833), son Trailer, Oyetawicape (born 1864), in Melt Band, White Clay District; lists family of Two Bulls, age 48 (born 1842), in Sahiyela Wakpa Community, White Clay District.
ź 1891 Pine Ridge Census, Family 305, White Clay Dist.: lists family of Corn Man, Wahuwapa Wicasa, Male, Father of Family, Age 67, wife Iron Neck, Tahu maza, age 67, nephew Two Bulls, age 53.
ź 1891 Rosebud Census: Corn listed as family head in Brule no. 2 Band (non- progressive), age 76 (born 1815).

* Please note re Cheyenne River Agency entry: High Bear (age 49: born 1827) was a headman or naca with a tiyospaye of eight lodges in the September 1876 Census (p.50-51). Among the lodge heads was Womans Dress (age 28: born 1848 – this is not the man implicated in the plot against Crazy Horse in 1877), Knife Scabbard (born 1846), Selected the Enemy (born 1850: presumably Select=Coffee). The latter's family was 2 Women, 1 Boy, 2 Girls. At some point in the fall of 1876 most of the tiyospaye left, because the contents pages of the Census amend the lodge total to 2 lodges. As of ca. Nov. 1876 High Bear had only his own lodge present, but he is still rated as a headman "Consolidated with Swan's band", i.e. the Glaglaheca band of Miniconjous. The December tally indicates that several men of the tiyospaye (without their families) have returned, and are living in High Bear's tipi.

Cheyenne River Census of December 1876 has amendment for Coffee: " 'Coffee' left Agency Sept. 8th 1878, destination New Red Cloud Agency, D.T." Nb that during September 1878 the Oglalas departed White River Forks to go to their new approved agency site at Pine Ridge. Note also this was the month for the Giveaway when Crazy Horse's soul was released (at Rosebud – just before departure for Pine Ridge?). Coffee would have been a 'younger brother' of Crazy Horse (as mother's sister's son).

Coffee is important because a man of this name (Coffee # 2) is said to have been the son of Looks At Her II (sister of Crazy Horse).

It is worth noting that the November 1871 Lodge Roll for Cheyenne River Agency lists together:
ź Lodge 116 The high Bear
ź Lodge 117 The bull Head
ź Lodge 118 The Bear that goes out. . . .
ź Lodge 129 The one that has horns
ź
Please note that heirship papers establish that Bull Head (born 1831) had brothers: Bear Coming Out; and Has Horn, whose son was Charles Corn (born 1853). Has Horn was therefore probably born a little before 1830. All these names cluster on the 1871 Miniconjou roll, with High Bear again occurring with what we might call the Corn affinity. Note also that High Bear is "consolidated" with Swan's Glaglaheca band of Miniconjou in 1876, while in the January 1875 Cheyenne River Census his band (including Picked it out, i.e. = Select/Coffee) is grouped with tiyospaye linked to Makes Room (father of Joseph White Bull), i.e. the Inyanaoin band of Miniconjou.

Nb that the December 6, 1872 report of Cheyenne River Agent lists CRA people who have started farming. Note no. 112 High Bear, clustered near several names also clustered in the 1871 Lodge Roll, e.g. Holy Bear (cf. The Bear that is considered medicine); Little Bull; The one that makes him walk; Crow Woman (also 1875).





The Aske Band: Miniconjou and Sicangu Connections


From my conversations with Chris Ravenshead, I synthesize the following information:
The Aske band settled at Cheyenne River near Cherry Creek, but were distinct from both Hump's and Joseph White Bull's tiyospaye, which were also settled at Cherry Creek. The name means a tuft or lock of hair, and in early reservation times signified people who did not cut their hair, i.e. were traditional, 'non-progressive' Lakotas.

The Aske were an old band among the Miniconjous, and people belonging to it included Charley Blue Arm, Iron Cane, Eagle Chasing, White Feather, and Swift Dog. The woman called Esther Smoking Woman, said by some to have been a sister or cousin of Crazy Horse, lived in her old age with the Eagle Chasing family near Cherry Creek.

The genealogy of the Builds Fire family (see Chris Ravenshead conversation Feb. 25, 1995), stretches back to ca. 1800. One of Builds Fire's sons, Charging Hawk, of the generation born ca. 1825, and his son, Beautiful Bald Eagle (born 1860) were specifically identified as Aske. This suggests that Aske was a named entity as early as ca. 1820.

Many Aske were killed at Wounded Knee, including Charley Blue Arm's brother Pretty Hawk, and White Dog. The latter was a son of Black Moon, whose family had stayed in Canada in 1881, but occasionally visited Cheyenne River, until they finally returned permanently to the reservation in 1894. This suggests that the Black Moon family may have been Aske, since White Dog was only a youth at the time of his death. It is noteworthy that Paul High Back, born 1870, seems to have been another son of Black Moon, suggesting a family connection to High Backbone.

White Magpie and Pretty Bald Eagle, two families related to each other, and to the Runs After family, live today on opposite sides of the road at Cherry Creek. I had observed to Chris that men of that name may have belonged to Roman Nose's camp of Miniconjous in the 1870's (Roman Nose, also known as They Are Afraid of His Shield; prominent Miniconjou headman, great-grandfather of Stephen Charging Eagle of Red Scaffold). Pretty Bald Eagle, alive today, was born 1918/19, says he is full-blood Miniconjou, related to Brown Thunder and White Feather (Aske band, today that family lives at Dupree). There are families called Bald Eagle today at both Rosebud and Pine Ridge, and Victor Douville noted to me that all were related in some way. Today White Magpie owns an Oglala Winter Count.


The Iron Shell (Sicangu) connection

Susan Bettelyoun stated (MSS, Nebraska State Historical Society) that the Sicangu chief Iron Shell, born in 1815/16, The Year an Earth Lodge was Built By the Sans Arcs, belonged to the Aske, Tuft of Hair band. "They were good hearted people, but quick and active, and also quick tempered. If any of the people of the other bands lost control of their tongues they were accused of belonging to the Aske band." A modern newspaper story identified Iron Shell's band as the Aske Kluwipi.

From the Hassrick information, we know that Iron Shell was the son and grandson of headmen (naca) among the Miniconjous, the father being Shot in the Heel, the grandfather Crooked Hand. It seems likely that this tiyospaye was the Aske, and that part of the group joined the Brules in the period 1805-20, including the Iron Shell family.

Victor Douville told me that the name Aske was applied generally to the Northern Lakota divisions, rather like the term Saone, that it means 'to wrap the hair' (rather than braid it), and that, like Chris's first statement, it came to mean non-progressive, anti-American Lakotas in the war period 1854-80, and, subsequently, on the reservation. Northern Brule groups like the Wazhazhas and Wablenicas were said to be Aske. Spotted Tail, as the son of a Sihasapa man, was said to originally belong to the Aske, but that he lost favour with this group as he became more pro-American.

Crazy Horse and the Aske

Synthesizing this information, I suggest that Crazy Horse's Miniconjou mother and stepmothers may have been identified with the Aske band. (Victor Douville directly confirmed this identification: Conversation of May 7, 2002.) Moreover, the last surviving stepmother died on the Rosebud Reservation, where she lived with the family of Brule relatives called Bald Eagle. Both Victor and Chris stated that this family has collateral branches among the Oglalas, Miniconjous and Brules, and Chris specifically identified the Cheyenne River Bald Eagle family with the Aske band, an identification going back to ca. 1820.

Crazy Horse's mother was related as cousin to his two stepmothers, Iron Between Horns and Kills Enemy. If we assume that Runs After Enemy was Aske, I suggest that his sister was married to Corn, and that their daughters included Iron Between Horns and Kills Enemy. Corn must have belonged to another band (Unkceyuta?), but by common Lakota practice, the daughters of a family were often identified with the mother's tiyospaye. Thus all three women could have been Aske band members. The fact that Esther Smokey Woman, related to Crazy Horse through his stepmothers, lived with the Eagle Chasing family, also identified specifically with the Aske band, confirms a connection between Crazy Horse's family and this Miniconjou tiyospaye.

Esther Smokey Woman

Esther Smokey Woman was born about 1859/60 and died during the 1930's. The most precise statement of her relationship to Crazy Horse comes from Ellen Condon In the Woods, who states that "Smokey Woman was Crazy Horse first cousin. She always talk about him[.] She had an uncle Combing, - (Charles son) Francis was his daughter - she married Joe Black Bear, live in Cherry Creek".
Esther's "uncle" (probably her mother's brother) Combing may be Leo Combing (born ca. 1848, still alive 1918), the eldest son of Woman Breast and Red Legs. As the elder brother of Julia Iron Cedar, Combing would have been a sunka, i.e. a classificatory younger brother of Crazy Horse (a cross-cousin in Euro-American terminology). This should make Esther a niece of Crazy Horse's, but the generations may be askew. Perhaps this Combing is not Leo Combing?

Note that Ellen also states that Lone Horn was Esther Smokey Woman's "father or uncle too". This is a possible key to unlock the Lone Horn relationship to Crazy Horse, but we need to clarify some of the details. Discounting the possibility that Lone Horn was Smokey Woman's biological father, he is most likely an uncle, classified by the Lakotas as leksi (mother's brother), unless he was father's brother, in which case he would be classed as a father (ate).

I assume that Esther's mother was a sister to Crazy Horse's mother or stepmothers (hence "first cousin"/classificatory sister). If Lone Horn was married to another of these 'sisters', Esther would have called him 'father'. I am tending to the belief that one of Lone Horn's wives (possibly Stands on Ground, the mother of Touch the Clouds) was a sister/parallel cousin to Rattle Blanket Woman and/or Iron between Horns and Kills Enemy.


Notes from Testimony of Leo Combing in the heirship cases of Red Leg and Julia Rushes, August 13, 1920: transcripts supplied by the Clown family, through Jack Meister, July 2001

Q. Who were the father and mother of Red Leg?
A. I have heard that her father’s name was Corn but I don’t know her mother’s name and that is all I know about them.
.………………….
Q. Did she [Red Legs] have any brothers and sisters and if so, name them and tell what you can about them.
A. She had two sisters that I saw and I have heard of others but never saw them. One was called Iron Between Horns, and the other one was called Kills Enemy. These are all the names that I know. She had one brother that died before I was born, when the Indians had some sickness and he was called Bull Head, never married and never had issue. Both sisters died before allotments.
Q. Was Iron Between Horns married and if so, how many times?
A. She was married one time.
Q. Who was her husband? A. Crazy Horse.
Q. How and when were they married? A. Indian custom long ago.
Q. Is he living or dead? A. He is dead.
Q. When did he die? A. He died about 40 years ago.
Q. Did they have any children and if so, how many?
A. They had one, a boy.
Q. What was his name? A. High Horse.
Q. Is he living or dead? A. He died long ago, before allotments when a young man, killed in an Indian war, and left no issue. There is nothing left of her family at all.
Q. Was Kills Enemy married and if so, how many times?
A. She was married to the same as Iron Between Horns, Crazy Horse, by the old Indian custom, and she died first, then Crazy Horse died and last Iron Between Horns died and all of them died long before allotments.
Q. Did Kills Enemy have any children and if so, how many?
A. She had two is what I have heard but they both died before I was born and there is nothing left of her family.


Kingsley Bray

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by dietmar on Mar 8, 2006, 4:35pm

Kingsley,

unbelievable important and interesting information!!

Best wishes

Dietmar
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by ephriam on Mar 9, 2006, 12:14am

Kingsley:

Wow! Its going to take some time to go through everything that you listed here. I am looking forward to your upcoming biography on Crazy Horse!

I am not certain that I agree with the hypothesis that the Oyuhpe were at one time part of the Miniconjou. H. Scudder Mekeel's notes imply that the Oyuhpe might have been the original core group (or "head band") of the Oglala. The Kuinyan later became head band of the Oglala and were eventually displaced by the Itesica, so that by the 1870s this tiyospaye referred to itself as the "True Oglala". Everything that I have suggests that the Oyuhpe always considered themselves Oglala.

However, I do agree that there is plenty of evidence that the Oyuhpe and the Miniconjou were closely aligned together. They were neighbors, with overlapping hunting grounds and close intermarrying, particularly in the period after the other Oglala tiyospaye moved further west after the establishment of Fort Laramie. Just my opinion -- but always ready to revise with more evidence!

I also thought you might be interested in the record for Female Breast from the Sitting Bull Surrender Census, September 1881, listed in Hump's band:

A-ze Tits 63
Hu-sa-sa-la Red Legs wife 63
Ma-ca [not translated] son 22
Hante Maza win Iron Cedar 12

This family was transferred to the Cheyenne River Agency in 1882 where they appear in the 1886 census:

Breast of Female, 61
Red Legs, 61
Iron Cedar, 18

I will go through the census indexes for the other names and see what I can find.

Ephriam
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by misty on Mar 9, 2006, 3:24am

Did Crazy Horse and Black Buffalo Woman have a child together?

I have read that Black Buffalo Woman had 2 sons and 2 daughters. Does anyone know their names?

Thanks Misty
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by grahamew on Mar 9, 2006, 2:01pm

You're probably aware of this, but In Cash and Hoover's To Be An Indian: An Oral History, an informant at Rosebud, George Kills In Sight tells Jospeh Cash (in 1967) that CH is 'sort of' related to his grandmother on his father's side. Nothing's made explicit, except that he notes his grandfather was Big Crow, then he seems to mix up CH's surrender with his death, but adds that his grandfather referred to CH as 'brother-in-law' and handed him a six-shooter. Interestingly, Kills In Sight also talks about his uncle, Coffee (presumably the son or grandson of the man mentioned by Kingsley), who knew where CH was buried.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by dietmar on Mar 10, 2006, 10:05am

Maybe there are some more indications for a connection between Crazy Horse and the Miniconjou:

- Crazy Horse´s mentor High Backbone was Miniconjou

- the Miniconjou Club Man married Crazy Horse´s sister (Looks at her?)

- Club Man and his brother Little Killer were close associates of CH

- another close associate, friend and relative?, Kicking Bear, married a Miniconjou woman (Woodpecker Woman, a niece of Miniconjou chief Big Foot)

Just my thoughts as I was reading Kingsley´s postings.




Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by dietmar on Mar 10, 2006, 10:27am

Kingsley,

Richard Hardorff listed three children of Makes the Song and his first wife:

Worm, an unknown son and Rattle Stone Woman (who married One Horse)

Is Rattle Stone Woman the same person as Big Woman in your post?

Dietmar
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Mar 10, 2006, 10:38am

To all who are working on this thread:

Your info is outstanding and work is meticulous. Congratulations on the hard work and the results.

From my pseudnoym (spelling?) CRZHRS you can see where my loyalties are . . . but my knowledge of CH is far less than what yours is.

Where do you get your info? Are you using the Ricker or Hinman interviews? Spoken to descendants? Great stuff and I look forward to more.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by agnes on Aug 12, 2006, 3:57pm

Dear Kingsley!

Very great work! I all agree with You and there's only a pair of confusing points:

1. The Hinman Interviews and Richard Hardorff (and other sources I think) all mentions the younger brother of Crazy Horse.

2. For me it is too strange that a Brule chief Black Buffalo was the father of One Horn (and also of Rattling Stone Woman) who later became a Miniconjou chief.

I think the Fair Haired Otter Woman was perhaps a Kiowa, because her name is a slightly unfamiliar among the Lakotas. Her name remind me to a Kiowa man, named Fair Haired Boy/Old Man.

Sincerely:
Agnes
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by grichard on Aug 25, 2006, 5:38am

Everything I have read indicates that His Crazy Horse was an Oglala of the Hunkpatila band, but on the Indian Memorial at the LBH he is described as "Minikon-konjou Lakota". Does anyone know whay this is, or indeed what Minikon-konjou means? I know that Minneconjou or Mniconjou means 'Those who plant by the river' but the Memorial appellation eludes me.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by grahamew on Aug 25, 2006, 6:01am

If you read the whole thread, it becomes clear - his mother was a Miniconjou
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by admin on Aug 25, 2006, 1:33pm


Quote:
. . . but the Memorial appellation eludes me.


Unfortunately, there are a number of mistakes on the Indian Memorial. Some of the men are listed by a couple Anglo interpretations of their names, resulting in duplications of warriors. I don't remember seeing the Minikon-konjou reference, but it must be a derivation of Minneconjou.

It's nice to see you here!
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Aug 25, 2006, 1:42pm

Diane:

So the 55 dead Lakota/Cheyenne that I counted on the plaques is wrong? Then that reduces the number to even lower.

Still . . . who come up with the dead Indians? Did they go to descendants and ask? There has been a list of Indians killed published many times but the plaques have new names. They had to come from somewhere.

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by admin on Aug 26, 2006, 10:15pm

I'm not sure who was responsible for listing the names, but I wish he had been more careful. Ultimately, I would guess the NPS is responsible.

The descendants have been talking to John Doerner, but that is recent, post-memorial. It would be nice to get a full count of the Sioux and Cheyenne losses, but is that possible after all these years?
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Aug 27, 2006, 10:33am

I guess one would have to go directly to any descendants and see if they are willing to talk about the battle and/or relatives who participated. As mentioned many times the elderly still feel they may be "punished" if they say things that would incriminate their ancestors and even them.

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by inkpaduta1981 on Aug 29, 2006, 6:52am

But are there pictures of these Sioux???

1. Black Shawl;
2. Buffalo Black Woman (I would like see her picture so much);
3. No Water;
4. Little Hawk, Crazy Horse's brother.

And what happened to Buffalo Black Woman and No Water? How, when and where they died?
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by grichard on Sept 26, 2006, 10:03am

Sorry Messageboarders, in my original query of Aug 25 I spelt the Memorial description of Crazy Horse incorrectly. Having now developed my photos I see that the appellation is "Minnikohoju". Thanks Grahamew for the language thread connection. I had rather thought that it was a reference to his maternal lineage, but the spelling and the fact that no other Lakota is similarly described made it unsound to make that assumption
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by agnes on Sept 29, 2006, 10:00am

AMOS AND JULIA IRON CEDAR CLOWN from notes of Raymond Clown

Amos Clown, Cega/Paul Red Bird and Grows in a Day/Lucy (Mrs. Poor Buffalo) were
the children of Fights the Thunder/Mi Ye Yi Lo (1828-1916) and Pazala/Thin Out/Rail/
Rotation.
Amos Clown was born around 1864 in Montana. He was 12 and took part in Custer's
battle. His brother, Paul Red Bird, is 15 years at that time. Both have seen lots of action.
They tell lots of eyewitness stories. It lasted about 30 minutes, they said.

Iron Cedar/Julia Clown was born at Powder River, Montana around 1864.
Her parents are Women's Breast/Corn and Red Leg (d. 1905). She has three
brothers: Chief Crazy Horse (half-brother, b. 1850); Peter Wolf and Leo Combing.
Women's Breast/Corn was also the father of Iron Between Horn (f) and Bull Head
(m).
Julia's father died or was killed in battle in 1874 when she was 8.
At age 10, she was not at the Custer battle as they moved out before the battle.
Amos Clown and Julia Iron Cedar were married in 1884 by a Congregational minister.

Nine children were born to this union:
Moses Clown/Running Eagle was born in 1891. He served in World War I and was
killed in Germany in 1918.
Joseph/Peter Clown (1894-1963) married Emiline Did Not Go Home and they lived
north of the Moreau River, across from Amos Clown's.
Nellie/Mollie Clown (1896/7-1930) married Samuel Butcher.
James Clown (1901-1969) married Mary Red Bear and later married Anna Red Bird.
Lillie Elizabeth Clown lived from 1903 until 1917.
Her sister, Lilie Clown (1903-1942) married James Makes Trouble.
Louise Clown, born in 1905, married Henry Red Bear. They now live in Dupree.
Edward Clown, born in 1908, married Amy Talks. They raised their children west of
Iron Lightning, and now live in Dupree. Raymond Clown (1914-1981) married Sarah
Marrowbone and raised six children in Thunder Butte.
Julia and Amos Clown are buried 3 miles east of Thunder Butte Community at the
Clown Family Cemetery. She died in 1936 and Amos died in 1943.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by ephriam on Sept 29, 2006, 10:11pm

Agnes:

Thank you for the contribution. May I ask where you obtained notes from Raymond Clown?

A couple of questions come to mind:

1. You have Julia Iron Cedar's father listed as Woman's Breast/Corn. You then say that Julia' father, presumably referring to Woman's Breast, was killed in battle in 1874.

I have never seen a reference to Woman's Breast also being known as Corn. In an interview with Leo Combing, Julia's brother, (posted above by Kingsley), you can see that Corn was the father of Red Legs, Womans Breast's wife. I think there might be confusion in Raymond's notes. Unless we are talking about two different individuals, Woman's Breast survived into the early reservation period. We have numerous census records that show he, his wife Red Legs and his daughter Julia. Woman's Breast died in 1900 (not 1874).

2. Also, I think there is confusion about the relationship of Iron Between Horn and Bull Head. According to the Leo Combing interview, they were both siblings of Red Legs, the wife -- not the children of Woman's Breast and Red Legs.

3. According to the Clown family, Julia's siblings (children of Woman's Breast and Red Legs) included:
The children of Julia and Amos Clown that you listed are what I have also.

4. There appears to be some confusion currently among the Clown family about the precise relationship to the Crazy Horse family (as Kingsley notes above). One part of the family claims that Crazy Horse the father (or Worm) was the same person as Woman's Breast, just different names for the same individual. However, agency census records suggest this is in error. In the fall of 1881, a census was conducted at both Standing Rock and at Rosebud at about the same time. Woman's Breast appears in the 1881 Standing Rock Agency census; Crazy Horse (the father) appears in the 1881 Rosebud Agency census. They therefore cannot be the same person.

As Kingsley has noted, the Clown family are probably related to the Crazy Horse family through marriage.

Agnes, I am especially interested in knowing the source for stating that the Fights Thunder family was at the LBH and that Woman's Breast was not present. Thanks!

ephriam
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by agnes on Sept 30, 2006, 12:47pm

Ephriam,

I can't to say that this note is a Holy Scripture. The censuses tell more family members, also in this the birth date of Crazy Horse is not precise, if he is another man with same name.

Surely Kingsley used this source and with other sometimes contradictory sources he made an acceptable family tree of Crazy Horse.

There's the link: ftp://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/sd/ziebach/history/chap16-1.txt

Sincerely:
Agnes
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by apsalooka on Sept 30, 2006, 9:16pm

Book of Kingsley is GREAT!!! Recieved it this week and started reading and its very well done. Thanks Kingsley.
Henri
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by catherine on Dec 14, 2006, 12:13pm

I invite people to get the information directly from the family of Crazy Horse. The DVD that they have "published" is quite explicit, and contradicts some of the info provided in the book of Mr Bray. See www.reelcontact.com
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Dec 14, 2006, 12:22pm

Catherine:

Have you viewed the DVDs? If so what do you think of it? How's the quality? Any info you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by dietmar on Dec 14, 2006, 1:15pm

Thank you for the information, Catherine. Sounds interesting.

BUT: This DVD might be good, to me the text in the advertising sounds a bit too sensational. I remain sceptical, when someone wants to tell me he got the TRUE STORY. The "authorized biography of Crazy Horse and his family"?? By Crazy Horse himself??? By his whole family????
And who are his "brothers and sisters"?

Again, might be a good DVD, but...

Best wishes

Dietmar
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by catherine on Dec 15, 2006, 4:05am

I watched the DVD and learnt a lot of interesting things. This is his family speaking, and you might take into consideration that this is one of the first time that something is produced by his relatives, and not by white people (with no offense).
For this reason I believe it is good to make the effort to watch it.
It is entitled the "authorized biography" for maybe one reason. Don't you think that it is a bit frustrating for a family to see foreigners write stuff about your ancestor and make money with it without asking you?
Dietmar, watch the DVD and you will see who is speaking. Why would you accept the work of Mr Kingsley Bray with no criticism and reject the oral history of the family of Crazy Horse? Because he has a PhD and not the descendants of Crazy Horse? For me oral history is key. And what has been transmitted from generations to generations should not be discarded. If you do so, you miss something crucial about Lakota culture.

With best wishes

Catherine
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by dietmar on Dec 15, 2006, 4:35am

Catherine,

first I want to thank you for joining the board and contribute new information about Crazy Horse. I didn´t want to be unfriendly in any way.

Although it is not my part to defend the work of Kingsley Bray, I must say that as far as I know he wrote much of his book from interviews and oral history he collected on Cheyenne River and other reservations. So I don´t think it is fair to say he rejected the oral history of the Crazy Horse family.
But if this DVD provides new information by descendants we don´t have heard, then great! I don´t have anything against it. It was just the way it was presented, that made me sceptical.

Best wishes

Dietmar

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by mortauxvaches on Dec 15, 2006, 4:44am

Frankly if I'm interested in reading a historical book about Napoleon I would have higher hopes for a book written by a historian than one written by Louis' great-great grandchildren. Not to comment on the DVD which might well be worthwhile but you seem to have an unnecessary antagonistic view on this.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by catherine on Dec 15, 2006, 1:36pm

Bonjour mort aux vaches!
Below is a message from someone from the CR reservation who knows how the book has been written... I still believe that oral history is essential when you deal with Lakota history.
I have an antagonistic view on this when Europeans or White Americans tell the story of the Lakota people in a twisted way, or when they ignore true people...just to make money...And this is the problem, it is all about making money on the back of Lakotas... Don't you think that we have stolen enough things from Natives? Stealing their history to make money or to gain a fame, that is enough.
Just think about it: if someone would like to make a book on your great grand-mother, and would discard or twist what you have told her, how would you feel?

***********************************************************************
the oral history he got he twisted and negated, and that one in the family was honored, but the information she gave was not recorded accuretly because it didn't fit in to the game plan.
Brey is a fraud, and only interested in saving face and his pocket book. he had the oportunity to speak with us in 2002. i had phoned the Nebraska Historical Society that was to sponsor him in a symposium, and both shined us on, in other words, ignored us. thru the courts, it has been proven who the family is, and some on his geneology have been ordered to cease and desist their claims, because they are simply false.
tell that board, they just prove to the world their ignorance and ethnocentrism as a white man with a degree is the only one who can tell the truth, which it is not. and it also proves the europeans penchant for trusting writen word, which for American Indians has proven time and time again to be one big lie.
he rushed to get that book out before the CD, out of fear he would loose dollars. now he will be proven a fool that he is.
you can cut and paste this on that board if you desire.

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Dec 15, 2006, 2:45pm

I always thought CH only had one sibling, a brother, Little Hawk, who was killed in the early 1870s(?)

Who are the "brothers & sisters" spoken of?

Since CH's only child died there are no direct descendants. There are obviously many relatives, uncles, aunts, cousins, in-laws, etc. Are these the ones that passed down the info to today's descendants?

I agree the description of the DVD was "sensationalist" . . . maybe a way to sell the DVD. I'm tempted to buy it . . . the price is good. How's the picture/voice quality?
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by markland on Dec 15, 2006, 6:41pm


Quote:
Bonjour mort aux vaches!
Below is a message from someone from the CR reservation who knows how the book has been written... I still believe that oral history is essential when you deal with Lakota history.
I have an antagonistic view on this when Europeans or White Americans tell the story of the Lakota people in a twisted way, or when they ignore true people...just to make money...And this is the problem, it is all about making money on the back of Lakotas... Don't you think that we have stolen enough things from Natives? Stealing their history to make money or to gain a fame, that is enough.
Just think about it: if someone would like to make a book on your great grand-mother, and would discard or twist what you have told her, how would you feel?

***********************************************************************
the oral history he got he twisted and negated, and that one in the family was honored, but the information she gave was not recorded accuretly because it didn't fit in to the game plan.
Brey is a fraud, and only interested in saving face and his pocket book. he had the oportunity to speak with us in 2002. i had phoned the Nebraska Historical Society that was to sponsor him in a symposium, and both shined us on, in other words, ignored us. thru the courts, it has been proven who the family is, and some on his geneology have been ordered to cease and desist their claims, because they are simply false.
tell that board, they just prove to the world their ignorance and ethnocentrism as a white man with a degree is the only one who can tell the truth, which it is not. and it also proves the europeans penchant for trusting writen word, which for American Indians has proven time and time again to be one big lie.
he rushed to get that book out before the CD, out of fear he would loose dollars. now he will be proven a fool that he is.
you can cut and paste this on that board if you desire.



What a load of bull hockey! While I do not know K. B. personally, I do respect his values as a researcher. The problem is that the substantiation of "oral history" is vague, especially when dealing with someone of Crazy Horse's stature. Personally, I will read K. B.'s book with the assurance that he attempted to be as factual and fair as possible.

As far as making money; well, let me add this caveat, there are few writers of pure history making enough money to do more than pay for expenses to cover the research involved. Since there are several authors on this board, I will let them put forth any comment. K. B.'s book, while interesting and relevant, is not on the NY Times's bestseller list you know. Perhaps if he had written a fictional book about CH's purported love affair with what's her face it would sell better. Unfortunately for K. B.'s bank account, but fortunately for us, he decided to take the high road and write about documented history.

Being a son of the South and an amateur genealogist, I have experience with tales delivered orally. Usually they are close to being accurate but there are always mistakes. Perhaps not critical but mistakes that in the long run of a person's life that could prove crippling for honest history. For instance, family history indicates we are the descendents of John Hardison. However, there is nothing to substantiate that view. John is a likely candidate but however, there are six other brothers who are possibles. Fortunately, I leave that aspect of the family history to the sister, who at last contact with was thinking about hair replacement therapy due to trying to figure it out.

Be good and don't believe everything you hear,

Billy
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by mortauxvaches on Dec 15, 2006, 6:45pm

To Catherine: In fact nor have I (yet) read the book or seen the DVD so I wont comment on what someone has chosen to put there and what someone has chosen to not put there. Just be careful to not make ad hominem arguments.

Perhaps I'm terribly naďve but I'm hard pressed to think there's
too much money to cash in on a book of this subject either. As well the bio was postponed several times by the publisher if memory serves me correct.
Do you feel publishers like the University of Oklahoma Press should cease releasing books that focus on these subjects? Haven't in fact certain books up through the years helped the casual reader to better understand what went down on the plains in the 19th century. How do you feel about history books about the holocaust not written by jews if I may ask? Should topics like the Iraqi-war only be written about by Iraqis, and in that case by Kurds, Sunni or Shi'ites? Your argument seems unsubstantiated.

There are, I'm sure, hundreds of biographies on Lincoln. Do you think his direct descendants have too much say in what get's written in them? The man in question on this thread is a very important historical figure, and a part of a collective history not anyones private property.
History will never be a canon where everyone is agreeing 100%, everyone has their own version of it, one which they may have adopted or made from a conglomerate of different soucres.

The understanding of a certain epoch comes from the present as well as the past, there's a big place for hermeneutics in history. I seem to have no problem with having to sift through various
versions and to make up my own mind on historical subjects.

And for the record: I have not stolen anything from anyone, look after your own ethics.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by clw on Dec 16, 2006, 4:34am

I'm new here and I don't want to appear presumptive, but......I have read Mr. Bray's book. As a political history of the Lakota it is an interesting read. As a biography of Ta'sunke Witco, it leaves a lot to be desired. For instance, I find it incredibly arrogant for an Englishman to spin an imagined tale of what his Hanbleceya might have been like.

The DVD deserves far more respect than it has been shown here. Simply and beautifully edited, the family tells their stories of their grandmothers and grandfathers as they have been passed down through the generations. They aren't going to get rich from this, it's not some slick fancy production -- just real people talking about things as they know them to be. To reject their oral history because it doesn't dovetail with white research is simply a repetition of the same old hubris. Without a written language, oral history was much more carefully preserved than you might think. Much different than Napoleon's grandchildren or tales of the old South. Oral history was their only way of preserving their past and they approached it with great integrity.

If you buy the DVD, I think you will find it very special. The geneology is very clear and carefully documented. The ways of the Lakota and the people we have heard about in the 'text books' just come to life. By far the best treatment of the subject matter I've found yet. Please don't dismiss it because there aren't any PhD's connected to it or you will miss the forest for the trees.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by harpskiddie on Dec 16, 2006, 7:50am

clw:

Amen, brother.

Gordie
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by jjm on Dec 16, 2006, 5:02pm

I've read Bray's book and I like it, but it occasionally lapses into Sandozims. He's clearly done a lot of research, including the consultation of oral historians among the Lakota, so how come he didn't have the opportunity of meeting those descendants of the Crazy Horse family who have taken part in the interviews for the DVD? You shouldn't knock him for being an Englishman; the book is a hell of a lot better than Sandoz' or Ambrose's or Sajna's. The best book by a mile on Tecumseh is by an Englishman, John Sugden. Also, I don't think Bray's got a PhD and I doubt he makes much moulah out of this.

I assume his version of the hanbleceya is based on good oral source material...

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by markland on Dec 16, 2006, 7:30pm

CLW, to address a few points with what I hope intend is as respect.


Quote:
I'm new here and I don't want to appear presumptive, but......I have read Mr. Bray's book. As a political history of the Lakota it is an interesting read. As a biography of Ta'sunke Witco, it leaves a lot to be desired. For instance, I find it incredibly arrogant for an Englishman to spin an imagined tale of what his Hanbleceya might have been like.


Fair review with which I have no problems with.



Quote:
The DVD deserves far more respect than it has been shown here. Simply and beautifully edited, the family tells their stories of their grandmothers and grandfathers as they have been passed down through the generations. They aren't going to get rich from this, it's not some slick fancy production -- just real people talking about things as they know them to be. To reject their oral history because it doesn't dovetail with white research is simply a repetition of the same old hubris. Without a written language, oral history was much more carefully preserved than you might think. Much different than Napoleon's grandchildren or tales of the old South. Oral history was their only way of preserving their past and they approached it with great integrity.


If I recall correctly, no one is dismissing the DVD. I agree that oral history is a valuable source for historians but as I said earlier, I do not believe that you can expect 100% accuracy. Likely just a matter of opinion which we can argue about until the cows come home and still not reach a harmonious agreement on.


Quote:
If you buy the DVD, I think you will find it very special. The geneology is very clear and carefully documented. The ways of the Lakota and the people we have heard about in the 'text books' just come to life. By far the best treatment of the subject matter I've found yet. Please don't dismiss it because there aren't any PhD's connected to it or you will miss the forest for the trees.


Re the DVD: IBID

The friction occurred when Catherine started the diatribe that the "descendents" of CH were neglected and ignored. They call K. B. "a fraud" and imply that they were ignored due to rascism. There are only so many ways that you can dress up the phrase "ethnocentrism as a white man" without implying rascism and despite many mental gymnastics on my part, I was unable to come up with anything with merit.

Personally, up until the moment I read the extract Catherine posted from the communication of the "descendents" I would have been willing to buy the DVD. Lord knows I buy enough already about the Indian War era so that should not have been a terrible hit. However, that attack posting sours me on the entire project no matter how well produced and worthy it may be.

Best of wishes and welcome aboard, we look forward to your opinions!

Billy
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by clw on Dec 16, 2006, 11:10pm

Hi Billy, thanks for the welcome! And the vote of support, Gordie. ;) But it's 'sister'.

I don't think we are that far apart on this. And in hindsight, I could have arrived with more tact. The 'Englishman' crack was a cheap shot. His book is very scholarly, shows a great deal of research and is big enough to throw at a burglar. ....occasionally lapses into Sandozims.... So well put. ::) But I honestly enjoyed it.

Fact is, I had just seen the DVD for the first time when I found this discussion, and I was still feeling it's impact pretty strongly. It does that to you.

Sioux genealogy is a maze. We all know that, just reread this discussion. Validating their lineage is like trying to nail jello to a tree. I spend a lot of time on Cheyenne River. What Mr. Bray discredits is very sacred to them. I think you'll understand if you see the DVD.

My recommendation? Buy both!


Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by jjm on Dec 17, 2006, 4:38am

"What Mr. Bray discredits is very sacred to them."

I'm not wishing to be conforntational, but I'm curious about this. What did he discredit? Did he ignore the opinions of some of the people on Cheyenne River?
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by ricemclean on Dec 17, 2006, 9:07am

Billy--

I've got to step in here with a truism, which I believe pertains to anyone who has tried to finish that book, that short story, that history. If writers--even those who take the "low road" and write fiction--are in it to make money, they've just picked the wrong profession. I heard a staggering statistic last month: out of the 50,000 titles published in the United States last year, less than 10 or so were for those theoretical "big bucks."

You write whatever you write because you love the subject and have a story to tell--be it fiction or non-fiction. Financial reward is nice, but the reality is, unless you're John Grisham, you'll be working that day job until retirement.

My husband is receiving the Bray biography for Christmas. I'm looking forward to enjoying the narrative ... when he's done with it! I met some of Crazy Horse's relatives during my first visit at LBH; quite, quite interesting.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by harpskiddie on Dec 17, 2006, 10:05am

clw:

Welcome, little sister [I'd guess that you are both younger, more agile and smaller than I, but probably not as pretty - no sexism intended], I hope that we get to hear more from you, and not just on the topic of the Lakota. Let's hear any stories you've picked up regarding the battle itself, even if they may seem outlandish. I, for one, am interested in oral histories of events.

Leyton:

You got that right. Like actors, singers and musicians, the percentage of writers who can actually forge a living out of their art is wonderfully small. My first two short stories cleared me 250 smackers [admittedly it was some years ago, as you might have guessed from the 'smackers'], which worked out to about 30 bucks a month. Needless to say, I turned my hand to other pursuits when it came to earning a living. When [if] I finish my tome on the fights on the Little Horn, I expect to realize about 25 cents per month of work - or perhaps even a negative return, which means I'd be farther ahead to stop now [is that an oxymoron?].

Gordie
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by clw on Dec 17, 2006, 10:46am

jjm - The pipe and bundle of Ta'sunke Witco have been passed down thru the Clown family of the Mnicojou band on CRR. Waglula spent his final years (1881 - 1900) there and changed his name twice to avoid government retaliation. One of the names he used was Woman's Breast. His youngest daughter, Iron Cedar (b. 1865, her mother was Red Leggins) or Julia Iron Cedar married Amos Clown. Afraid of Her was living with them when she died in 1889. So Julia Clown was the sister of Crazy Horse. Remember that the to the Lakota, half siblings were just plain siblings -- they were all the children of Waglula. Bray follows the reservation census records of the period and doesn't consider Julia Clown as Waglula's daughter -- says her father was Woman's Breast. Therein lies the conflict.

Efrim points out in a previous post that "In the fall of 1881, a census was conducted at both Standing Rock and at Rosebud at about the same time. Woman's Breast appears in the 1881 Standing Rock Agency census; Crazy Horse (the father) appears in the 1881 Rosebud Agency census. They therefore cannot be the same person. " The family states that was the year he moved from Rosebud to CRR and changed his name so he could have easily appeared on both census. IMHO, those census records are far from dependable. These people were in fear of their lives and hid their identity with fictitious names and constant movement. Only in recent years did the family feel safe enough to begin the work of telling their history and documenting their lineage. They want it recorded for the children. The coincidence of Bray publishing at the same time and refuting their claim has been painful and frustrating. These are good and honest people who I'm proud to call my friends.

Gordie, there is a second DVD coming out Part 2 - Defending the Homeland. It will have the battle stories and I can't wait!! I've heard some of the stories, but I'll let the People tell them. As it should be. I know they have been working with the NPS regarding changing the placement of the different camps and archeology appears to be backing them up. But I don't know all the details. Should be extremely interesting.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by jjm on Dec 17, 2006, 11:18am

Thanks :-)
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by harpskiddie on Dec 17, 2006, 12:17pm

Exactly.

Gordie
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by shatonska on Dec 17, 2006, 2:27pm

very interesting
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by ephriam on Dec 17, 2006, 3:55pm

I have been hesitating to weigh in on this discussion as I watch it unfold -- I wish we could keep our discussions focused on the information in question and maintain a respectful and supportive atmosphere.

From my own perspective, all forms of evidence used in reconstructing the past should be viewed with a critical eye. This is true whether we are talking about oral history passed down through several generations or a written census record; this includes maps and even photographs. Each of these records reflect the perspective of the individual(s) who recorded it, with all those imperfections and biases; and sometimes they reflect the misunderstandings of those who read or hear the information from within their own frame of reference. As avocational historians trying to understand the past, we have to be prepared to carefully examine every source and compare them with other data. I don't believe that having a critical eye about sources represents favoritism or racism, rather an effort to get closer to "the truth", whatever that may be.

But some issues arise that cannot be completely resolved with the available evidence. It is clear that the Clown family have an oral history regarding Woman's Breast and Worm being the same individual. I do not believe it is disrespectful to that family if we consider this new information carefully in light of what else is known. I acknowledge that their information could very well be true. But it is also possible that some part of it has become misunderstood. We should point out that the oral history of other family members, through the line of Little Hawk (Crazy Horse's uncle), disagree with the Clown family claim. In fact, this very issue is in court currently in an effort to determine the heirs of Crazy Horse's estate.

One of the writers in a message above is absolutely correct in suggesting that census records are not always accurate. I have found many inaccuracies, especially the earliest ones from the 1876-1881 period. At most, a census record represents just a snap shot and are not always easy to interpret as Lakota relationships were recorded by bureaucrats using the narrow Euro-American words and definitions. I find that census records cannot stand alone. They are most helpful when linked with other lines of evidence such as oral histories and additional documents.

When I attempt to match up the very meager census records with the oral histories told by the Little Hawk descendants and the Clown descendants about Crazy Horse's father, I think the evidence leans more towards the Little Hawk oral history. Womans Breast's family appears in the 1881 Standing Rock Agency census in Hump's band of Minnecoujou, shortly after they were transferred from Fort Keogh to Standing Rock. Unfortunately, we do not have complete lists of Hump's band while at Fort Keogh (we have a partial list from 1877), but perhaps one day such a document will turn up. Based on the fact that Womans Breast is with Hump in 1881, I suspect he came in with him in 1877 to Fort Keogh and then traveled downriver with Hump by steamboat to Standing Rock. The fact that "Crazy Horse's father" (presumably Worm) appears in the Spotted Tail/Rosebud census records in 1877-78 and in 1881 suggests to me that they are not the same individual as claimed by the Clown family.

So what might the Clown family oral history represent? The evidence suggests that Julia Clown referred to Crazy Horse as a "brother", not in the Euro-American definition of the word but within the more expansive Lakota definition of the term. I suspect that is true. What we may not understand right now is the actually genealogical relationship of Julia Clown and Crazy Horse. In the end, I wonder how important that detail is. Whether the connection to Crazy Horse is through Worm/Womans Breast being the same individual or two closely related individuals, is it not possible that the Clown family has preserved some interesting perspectives on the life of Crazy Horse?

I, for one, will be ordering a copy of the CD to see what they have to say.

ephriam

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by agnes on Dec 17, 2006, 5:15pm

I agree with Ephriam. A good researcher is cautious and critical. The historical sources, censuses and manuscripts can to confirm, modify or reject oral history. I'm pretty sure in that the Lakotas have good oral histories because that was like our writing. But as the the viewpoint of one writer is different from another, so the memory of one family is different from another.

For example, according to the Clown family, Iron Cedar Woman related to Crazy Horse, but Flying Hawk stated that his mother related to one of the wives of Sitting Bull....
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by clw on Dec 17, 2006, 6:33pm

I can add only from my perspective.......

1) Little Hawk 1 was Corn's brother and his son, Little Hawk 2, who was killed in 1870, was a close friend to CH. Corn was CH (step) Grandfather.

2) Hump 1 was Rattling Blanket Woman's brother, both children of Black Buffalo. Waglula was kola to his brother-in-law. And that would make the son, Hump 2 (of Standing Rock), cousin to CH. Obviously a close connection all around.


Good points, Ephriam. But I'm not familiar with the Little Hawk connection that you mention. I only know one story and am far from an expert even on that. I don't have access to the research. I'm already reminding myself to stay out of this before I get in over my head. [image] Which is starting to ache as I get further into the maze. Good you're going to check out the DVD.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by markland on Dec 18, 2006, 4:16am


Quote:
Hi Billy, thanks for the welcome! And the vote of support, Gordie. ;) But it's 'sister'.

I don't think we are that far apart on this. And in hindsight, I could have arrived with more tact. The 'Englishman' crack was a cheap shot. His book is very scholarly, shows a great deal of research and is big enough to throw at a burglar. ....occasionally lapses into Sandozims.... So well put. ::) But I honestly enjoyed it.

Fact is, I had just seen the DVD for the first time when I found this discussion, and I was still feeling it's impact pretty strongly. It does that to you.

Sioux genealogy is a maze. We all know that, just reread this discussion. Validating their lineage is like trying to nail jello to a tree. I spend a lot of time on Cheyenne River. What Mr. Bray discredits is very sacred to them. I think you'll understand if you see the DVD.

My recommendation? Buy both!




CLW (or is it Catherine?)

Tact? Isn't that some dirty four-letter word?

Now for a couple of Excedrin as trying to figure out Indian genealogy reminds me too much of my mother's family. Just as an FYI, from the late 1600's through the 1700's the Hardisons tended to have many sons. Unfortunately they also tended to name their sons after their brothers and to add to any self-respecting genealogist's anguish, they tended to be stick-at-homes. Thus eastern NC is thickly populated during that time (pretty much up through the Civil War-that tended to thin them out somewhat) with multiple Josephs, Johns, Jaspers, Noahs, etc. with usually three (and sometimes four) generations represented in those like names.

Between the NA and Hardison genealogy, I think I will stick with nailing jello to a tree. It is less of a headache!

Merry Christmas to you and yours,

Billy

P.S. Now to dig into my books about the Apache to plan an appropriate response to the idiot who sent out an FYI page of literally no importance at 03:08 and woke up half the company's Tier III tech support teams including yours truly.

P.P.S. Nothing having any relevance to this board but as I listen to it, I can't help but think that Paul Simon's "Graceland" was and still is an outstanding album.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by kingsleybray on Dec 18, 2006, 5:25am

I've been waiting for this thread (and myself) to cool down a little, but I'll take the opportunity to address some of the issues raised about my book and myself.

Before addressing some of the general points, I'd like to correct the record about me. Catherine's Lakota correspondent writes that in 2002 he or his associates approached Nebraska State Historical Society to speak to me during the Fort Robinson historical symposium - and was turned down. Let me say that I was not aware then or later of such an inquiry - until I read this message board last week. I'm somewhat surprised, since both myself and my friend Jack Meister (who also attended that symposium) had been working for weeks or even months to arrange meetings at Fort Rob with Lakota people. As an Englishman my opportunities for research trips to the USA are not unlimited and I like to maximise my contacts with both US scholars and members of the Lakota community - sometimes, they're one and the same. I was able to meet with people from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud, but no-one from Cheyenne River. Since Jack Meister was at the time in frequent telephone conversation with members of the Clown family, I'm again surprised that we weren't aware of an approach by them or associates.

Catherine's correspondent, and Catherine herself, attack me intemperately as "rush[ing] to get that book out before the CD, out of fear he would loose dollars." This is gross misrepresentation, although inadvertently funny given the long road to publication. Research aside, I wrote the basic text of the biography between 1998 and 2000. I made revisions, cuts and corrections until the final text was approved one year ago, in December 2005. Because I was a teensy bit slow in some of the editing, publication was deferred from 2005 until this September. This isn't rushing into print, as my wife kept reminding me throughout the editing!

That brings me to the research, and the associated issue of my "stealing [Lakota] history to make money or to gain a fame". I've been interested in Plains Indian history since childhood (I just turned fifty), and have been purposively researching since 1980. Since then I've had a number of articles, chiefly on Lakota history, published by scholarly journals both here in the UK and in the States. I shouldn't have to stress the point that for this work I've received precisely NO money - it's done for love of the subject. Scholarly foundations like Nebraska State Historical Society have paid my travel and accommodation expenses on trip to America connected to lectures and speaking engagements. Apart from the modest advance I received from Oklahoma for CRAZY HORSE, A LAKOTA LIFE I have received no other moneys in connection to my research and writing. While sales are healthy for my book for a title like this, it is as several posts indicate not on the bestsellers list. My hope for it has always been that it would help fund continued research and writing. To suggest that my sole reason for writing is MONEY & FAME is an outrageous slander - not the less outrageous for being so inadvertently hilarious. I don't expect or want an apology, Catherine, but you should gather the facts from as many sides of a question as possible before rushing into print (message board or otherwise) - a lesson that should be the first learnt by anyone working in history.

Which brings me to Catherine's statement that "For me oral history is key." Me too - as any reading of the Endnotes of my biography will show. Every page of text is pinned down by statements made by Lakota people. Some were made contemporary with the events described, some taken down by interviewers in the early 20th Century, some by people that I've consulted over the past decade or so. I privilege Lakota testimony because so much of it stacks up to make a coherent picture of Crazy Horse's life and times. It's vivid, first-hand, and accurate. But like any source it has to be weighed critically - just as I would assess a 'white' source, I have to analyse and filter the information - otherwise I'd be a hopeless failure as a historian. What you don't allow for, Catherine, is that other Lakota families have traditions, too, that don't always agree with each other. This is just the natural passing of time wearing down memory. But am I meant to accept one (in your example, the Clown family's beliefs regarding the Crazy Horse genealogy) at the expense of the other (in this case the descendants of Worm's half-brother Little Hawk)? I had to make a judgement call. Unfortunately what was already a very long book couldn't accommodate a lengthy explanation of my reasoning, which is the reason I posted my thoughts on Crazy Horse's genealogy on this website. I remain open to persuasion, but my belief remains this: that Clown family ancestor Julia Iron Cedar was the daughter of Corn and Red Leggings Woman - the latter being a sister of the two co-wives of Crazy Horse's father Worm. All three women were kin, perhaps cousins, to Rattle Blanket Woman (died 1844-5), the biological mother of Crazy Horse. Crazy Horse himself would have addressed Julia Iron Cedar as his younger sister. In the Lakota system of relationship, that is correct. In Euro-American terms she was his step-cousin. Recently (since completing my book) members of the Clown family have attempted to show that Worm and Red Leggings Woman's husband Woman's Breast are one and the same - therefore Julia and Crazy Horse would be full siblings. For the reasons adduced by Ephriam above, I think this is wrong. Worm died at Rosebud Reservation early in the 1880s, according to censuses and family oral tradition from that reservation - am I supposed to ignore that as Catherine criticises me for doing with the Clown traditions? Woman's Breast died at Cheyenne River early in the 20th Century. Personally, I don't think those contradictory statements can be harmonised - one has to be right, the other wrong. You know my belief - but I'm always open to genuinely new evidence to revise any and all interpretations. A message board like this should be a forum for such re-interpretation - not ad-hominem attacks. What I won't accept is being traduced as a rip-off merchant. My intellectual and much of my emotional/spiritual life have been dedicated to interpreting the history and culture of the native people of the plains. I count Lakota people among my friends and I won't be lectured to, or have my good faith be impugned, by people whose real knowledge of these matters is superficial at best

Toksha Ake

KINGSLEY BRAY
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by kingsleybray on Dec 18, 2006, 5:44am

One more thing: I'm absolutely delighted about the DVD - again I had no knowledge of it until this sequence of messages. Let me wish all concerned every success with it, and be assured I'll be ordering my copy ASAP. Although my posting shows that I have differences of interpretation regarding aspects of Crazy Horse's genealogy, I have no doubts that the Clown family have important material to share with the world. Again, every success - in the world of Lakota and Crazy Horse studies, my attitude will remain The More the Merrier!

Peace on Earth, Good Will to All Men

Kingsley Bray
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by kingsleybray on Dec 18, 2006, 5:46am

Dear Markland

While on the unrelated topics of great albums, my vote for 2006 goes for BOB DYLAN, 'Modern Times'

Best,

Kingsley Bray
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by markland on Dec 18, 2006, 8:09am


Quote:
Dear Markland

While on the unrelated topics of great albums, my vote for 2006 goes for BOB DYLAN, 'Modern Times'

Best,

Kingsley Bray


Kingsley, thanks for the explanation of your research/editorial decisions. It was totally unnecessary for most but I can understand the decision to state your case.

By the way, after screaming in anguish over being unnecessarily awakened this morning, I had in mind to listen again to Dylan's "Modern Times" but for some reason decided at the last minute upon Paul Simon. Dylan is still on my listening list, especially later in the morning when I engage in some creative accounting, otherwise known as an expense report. I have listened to it twice already and each time I listen to it, I like it more. If you willing to listen to the best of 2005, may I recommend Van Morrison's "Magic Time."

Merry Christmas to you and yours,

Billy

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by grahamew on Dec 18, 2006, 11:22am

It's interesting to read all this to allow us to put some of the comments into their proper context. From other boards, I was aware that some Lakota were p'd off that Kingsley's book presented a picture that didn't entirely agree with their own but I wasn't aware of the exact problem until now; nor was I aware of the 'dispute' between the two factions that I assume lies at the heart of all this. I am now and I appreciate being informed in a rather calm manner by clw, Ephriam and Kingsley himself after the somewhat inflammatory re-opening of this thread.

For what it's worth, I enjoyed the book and admire (and envy) the job he's been able to do.

I like Dylan's album too, but it's a bit like a Dylan album for the masses, perilously close to Empire Burlesque in the way he gives people what they they think a Dylan album should be. And if you can work out what that means, you're a better man than I am. Still, I'll be forking out the readies to see him next year - again!

I prefer Simon's 70s albums, but I like them all up to and including Graceland (and the bootleg MTV Unplugged show) and I have a sneaking suspicion that the new one is a far more important work than it's been given credit for.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by clw on Dec 18, 2006, 12:30pm

Mr. Bray, thank you for your post. This is turning into a great discussion. Absolutely no disprepect intended, but this is driving me crazy and I have to ask...............


Quote:
I remain open to persuasion, but my belief remains this: that Clown family ancestor Julia Iron Cedar was the daughter of Corn and Red Leggings Woman - the latter being a sister of the two co-wives of Crazy Horse's father Worm.


If Red Leggins is sister to [Iron Between Horns and Kills Enemy] the two co-wives of Waglula whom you state in your book were Corn's daughters (pg. 11), then how could Red Leggins produce a child with her own father? What am I missing?
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by catherine on Dec 18, 2006, 12:55pm

Mr Bray, thank you for your post. I agree with clw the discussion starts to be interesting.
Below is a direct answer to your previous post. This is from Cheyenne River.
*************************************************************

i read it, you can respond;
there is no viscious harm ever intended. if he was not informed he could meet with the family, well, to be honest, i feel for him. that would be Nebraska state historical issue, but we did call them, the family AND the brothers were interested in speaking with him. i have read parts of the book, and his informants either thru ignorance, or deciet or whatever....I AM NOT ACCUSING ANY ONE OF ANYTHING.......got it wrong. there was a reason why the family did not come out before hand. there is a very valid reason. but his refusal, or thru his own ignorance of not searching out the family, lends every one to say what was said. CH was from here, his family is STILL here, haven't gone any where. but they won't talk to just any one. many years ago, back in 90 or so, one of the family did do things for his own personal gain, that member of the family has been disowned, and his information he sold was not factual. that member also set up another into believing he was a member of the family when in fact he was not, and that person has been in court with the family, desperatly holding on to what is not there.
it matters not how long he took in putting his book together. he got info that was incorrect, and the family is still here, he never talked to any one that could set him straight. here on this rez would have been virtually a one stop for his book, but he chose for what ever reason to ignore it. and the family is just plain tired of white men trying to write about them, and they get it soooo wrong. yes, with these facts, to us, he does look like a fool. we had been told he knew the DVD was coming out, and to go ahead and publish, knowing this information, to us here, yes it does seem as he is only after money. so often white man has done this in the past, and people are just tired of it
now whether the information we got is correct or not, matters not. the family is very visible here. you don't need to feel bad, you can respond to mr. brey if you desire. miscommunication has always been a problem between the rez and the outside world. just as we were told he was to be at another function in Nebraska, and he wasn't there to meet with us. Maybe WE are getting the wrong information also, i wouldn't doubt it nor be suprised. but what was said is because of what i have just told you. we don't mean no one harm, just we want the real truth known, not any speculation, because speculation is not needed, we have ALL the information, it is a family.
by the way, i have a copy of the family tree, there are in the neighborhood of 3000 people on it.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by harpskiddie on Dec 18, 2006, 1:34pm

All:

I haven't followed this thread from the beginning, and having nothing of pertinence to add to it, would only ask: would someone please tell me how to get the DVDs so often mentioned?

Thanks a bunch.

Gordie
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by clw on Dec 18, 2006, 1:52pm

[image]
http://www.reelcontact.com/
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by markland on Dec 18, 2006, 9:43pm


Quote:
[image]
http://www.reelcontact.com/


Many thanks and Merry Christmas to you and your family, friends and anyone else who you give a fig about!

Note to all! To avoid pop-ups and what-have you at the original posted site URL which features a pop-up (don't you love free web sites, including yours truly's, which put that junk for visitors), you may try to just use this url (which did not seem to allow any pop-ups with my Firefox)

http://www.reelcontact.com

Billy

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by harpskiddie on Dec 18, 2006, 11:04pm

I second that emotion.

Gordie
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by kingsleybray on Dec 19, 2006, 5:32am

Thanks clw, for pointing out my typo re the marriage of Red Leggings Woman. Let me take the opportunity to correct the record.

Corn was a Miniconjou chief painted by Catlin in 1832 - to judge by his appearance he may have been born in the late 1780s/early 1790s. Since writing the Crazy Horse biography I have located winter count evidence that he died in 1846 or '47. His children included such sons as Bull Head (possibly two bearing the name, the eldest dying before ca. 1850), Has Horn (and maybe some uncles of Crazy Horse that seem to fit in here: Ashes, Spotted Crow); and daughters Red Leggings Woman, Kills Enemy, and Iron Between Horns. The latter two married Oglala holy man Worm (father of Crazy Horse by his first wife Rattle Blanket Woman - also Miniconjou and related to the later wives). Red Leggings Woman married a Miniconjou called Woman Breast, and their children included Julia Iron Cedar - born 1864, who identified Crazy Horse as her brother - entirely correctly according to the Lakota kinship system.

See my long posting at the beginning of this thread, and other postings by Ephraim and others for more details on Julia's brothers and sisters.

Thankyou, Catherine, for passing on my first response to the people at Cheyenne River, and thanks to them for a more measured response. Let me add that the recent meeting at Agate Springs which Clown family members attended - again in the belief that I'd be present - is another case of mis-communication. I was in the USA briefly in the second week of October, attending a conference in Chadron, NE. I did not have the chance to attend Agate Springs, and only learned about it through the angry posting by "Tracker" on the Lakhota.com site. I repeat that I'd be more than happy to meet the Clown family and their representatives. About scheduling publication - it's really not in the author's hands. The fall 2006 (originally fall 2005) slot was determined by the publishers over twelve months ago. Neither me nor they were aware of the DVD release until this past week. Regarding sales, I'm a novice in these matters, but I would have thought that two new contributions to the Crazy Horse story would boost sales for each other. That, at any rate, would be my hope.

Best Wishes to All

KINGSLEY BRAY
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by clw on Dec 19, 2006, 8:36am

Thanks, Mr. Bray. The whole question hangs on that particular point in time it seems. The story (for Gordie cuz he likes stories and so do I [image] ) is this. In 1844, when CH was four years old, Waglula was out hunting when he came across Corn's camp under attack by the Crow. Waglula and his warrior's engaged and turned the tide, but not before Corn's wife was killed. In gratitude to Waglula for saving his camp, Corn gave Waglula the daughters of his dead wife: Iron Between Horns, Kills Enemy and Red Leggins. They all returned with him. He took the first two as wives, but because Red Leggins was young, he didn't take her at that time.

Now he had been very happy with Rattling Blanket and this was an unexpected occurance but a gift impossible to refuse. Tragically, this is the sequence of events that led to Rattling Blanket's suicide. She felt replaced and unloved, became despondent and took her life.

It was several years later, when she had grown, that Waglula married Red Leggins. And that appears to be the reason for all the later confusion.

Merry Chirstmas all!

PS I am NOT Catherine! [image]
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Dec 19, 2006, 9:18am

Now I see why it is very difficult to who was related to who. If we use Western ways we cannot see the "relationship" but American Indian ways makes it very obvious.

Even "unrelated" people are considered relatives. Again trying to interpret what Indians say or meant has resulted in numerous mix ups, confusion, wrong deductions, and so forth.

That is what makes trying to figure out much of what Indians say about their culture and events like the LBH difficult. Judging another culture by ours and putting words in their mouth only complicates matters more.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by catherine on Dec 19, 2006, 11:07am

Mr Bray,
Below is another response from Cheyenne River.
I wish you a nice Christmas.
PS: I confirm: I am not clw :)
***********************************************************************

Mr. Bray,
I write to you thru this gracious woman I don't know, but she is a nice lady. I also write you to let you know straight up, no one has ever intended you any harm, with words or anything.
At one time, you had the opportunity to get ALL your information at one location. I was the individual who called the Nebraska State Historical Society and requested a meeting with you, to "feel you out". The reason for that was to see if you were a man that could be trusted with the truth of the family. I reiterated my request 2, 3 times to the response of, and I quote, "oh no, Mr. Bray is the foremost authority on Crazy Horse". This of course spiked every one in the families interest in you, as you had never visited the one place where all the unknown truth was located. Needless to say, that door has long slammed shut for you. Maybe you had no idea that this opportunity existed, but if you were indeed the foremost authority, and a true investigative scholar, you would have exhausted more resources to explore ANY connection. The Clown family is not a connection, it is sir in FACT, the whole. As I write this, every now and again, I cast a look at the family tree, the real one.
From my understanding, you followed the tree as it related to Waglula's demise. That was a bad mistake. Take for instance the individual named Roaming Nose. He is also known as Frog. Say anything to you? Waglula is also Woman's Breast, Breast of Woman and Kills at Night. I think one thing you failed to realize is that from the time of his death, to 2000, there was extensive DISINFORMATION purposely related. The family was in fact actively pursued into the 20th century, which included family assassination and attempted abduction and assassination. You also relied on census records, another grievous error. We were a nomadic people, fresh to a concentration camp, travel was in our bones, and families were at different agencies, and visitation was frequent, and being counted at one agency was common when you were only visiting. Did you check ration cards? Death records? Did you have the inside track by talking with the lineal family? some of these issues would have jumped out and slapped you if you had. But the fact is sir, some of our Lakota families you can not get an accurate picture with out talking to the family historian, just about every family has one, and then cross reference with other family members. Perhaps you followed a tree that one Big Crow tries to claim, he is not in fact related. His ancestor was married into the family, and due to unacceptability or incompatibility or whatever causes a divorce, it happened to his ancestor before a baby was ever conceived, notice I do not reference a birth. Therefore, at that point, there was no longer any connection what so ever to his family. Why, why do the Europeans insist on any thing dealing with Little Hawk?
Another fact, the Ogalala connection is with Jack Greasy Hand, who married the Larrabee woman after Crazy Horses demise. They used his ration card to get scarce and scanty food rations, a clever move, and the Larrabee woman was a spy. End of Ogalala connection, no relation, no ties.
Crazy Horse is Mnicoujou.
Sir, I mean you no disrespect, but the truth is the truth. It is European obsession in ethnocentrism that we disrespect. You feel our oral history can not be correct, well, the only way I can say anything so perhaps you will understand is look at all history, is not it a fact that history is written by the victor? Was it not an American policy of Manifest Destiny, was Englands goal at one time to make the whole world England? We have our facts sir, despite how any scholar may want to scoff at it. Again, sir, I mean you no disrespect. Now enjoy the DVD, it is the truth, and the family made it themselves because of all the un truths that have been related in Crazy Horse's name. Why did the family wait, wouldn't you have? ever hear the term Indian Time? Does it mean because they are not nocking things over to get to a publisher a fault? Does it make the truth any less the truth? I feel sorry you feel you may have been insulted, but if you do, did you not expect to hear some thing back from a family that very much knows their history? This is just the tip of the ice berg, but enough.
No, there is no photo of Crazy Horse.
No, no one has guessed his resting place correctly, you are welcomed to keep guessing.
No, Sandoz was not even close, as a matter of fact, she was hit with full blown disinformation.
thank you
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by grahamew on Dec 19, 2006, 3:53pm

"The family was in fact actively pursued into the 20th century, which included family assassination and attempted abduction and assassination."

Please tell us more...
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by ricemclean on Dec 19, 2006, 6:31pm

Let me just add a personal note about oral history. The written history of my Navajo family only goes back as far as my great-grandfather--though there have been some notable exceptions. When my grandfather died in 1987, as his only descendant, I was supposed to have a bunch of handy information about his parentage ... I could only guess his mother's name. We had a supposed Navajo name and little else ... it was a bit embarrassing, needless to say, to try and adjust our oral tradition to Anglo bureaucracy. I'm still not sure about the matter--or who she really was, as my great-grandfather had four wives and, perhaps, many lovers. Two years ago, I learned I had a cousin here in this state--related from my great-grandfather, but not a product of any marriage ... it gets real confusing, and hey, he was a saint, right?

Probably the most notable in-factoid of our oral history is the way my great-great grandmother died. I was brought up thinking she had been killed by Kit Carson himself--when what actually happened was that the entirety of his army--over time--had been reduced to just him. Certainly, it's easier to remember and more notorious than being killed by a drunk private ...

I'm not tossing water on anybody's oral tradition, but through my experiences, I've learned to look at it with a certain amont of healthy cynicism. What I've found about truth is that it lives somewhere between two extremes.

Just my story.

Another note: ethnocentricism is something of which every culture is guilty. We may have different terms for it ...
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by dietmar on Dec 20, 2006, 5:37pm

I felt a bit guilty for starting this argument when I first questioned the quality of the DVD. I am glad now that this thread developed into one of the most interesting of all.

I am going to order the DVD and hope I will love it just the same as Kingsley Bray´s book.

Thank you all

Dietmar

P.S.: I know you all know the Catlin painting, but I just found it again on Google:
[image]
Chief Corn 1832


Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by gary on Dec 21, 2006, 8:37am

I recommend Kingsley's book (which I am half way through) and I intend getting hold of the DVDs. My reason for contributing to this thread however was ask how grahamew could possibly compare 'Modern Times' with 'Empire Burlesque'. Shame on you!

Merry Xmas to you all.

Gary
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by kingsleybray on Dec 21, 2006, 8:53am

Grahame, I'm with Gary on this one!
Kingsley
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by kingsleybray on Dec 21, 2006, 9:39am

Thanks, Katherine for the new message from Cheyenne River. It's a shame that I missed the Fort Robinson connection to the Clown family back in '02 - and you know, I'd never dream of saying of myself that I'm the greatest expert on (whatever) . . . I'm afraid that's down to a failure in communication. However in 2001 and 2002 my friend Jack Meister did speak to several of the elders in the family who were kind enough to share facts and anecdotes with us. They also sent a copy of a 1920 interview with Leo Combing, one of Julia Iron Cedar's brothers, in which he carefully explained some of the family's connections with the Crazy Horse family. The interview is transcribed in my 'Notes on the Genealogy of Crazy Horse'. It clearly indicates that Crazy Horse's father (Crazy Horse Sr., or Worm) and Woman's Breast were two different men. Leo I reiterate was born in 1851 and was contemporary with the principals in our story. It is only in recent years, in the context of the legal cases waged between individuals and families claiming descent from Crazy Horse, that the Clown family have asserted that Worm and Woman's Breast are one and the same. Confusions of this sort are only to be expected in any culture - generations get confused, and when names recur across generations, then we have a hotbed for confusion. I have spent years researching these family histories. I don't claim to have the inside track on every one - not at all - but to approach reality we have to collate evidence from as many sources as possible. Inevitably this means that we have to make judgments on greater or less probability when we hit contradictions and ambiguities.

Crazy Horse is a good example of this, simply because we have such a wealth of information - it's like a jigsaw with half the pieces missing. Still, that's a lot better percentage than for most of his contemporaries. To identify some of my disagreements with how the Clown family perceive Crazy Horse's background, let's look at their latter-day claim that he was all Miniconjou. Now, his mother and stepmothers certainly were Miniconjou - no doubt about it. My feeling from the sources is that he actually felt a lot more comfortable among his mother's people than he did at 'home' among the Oglalas. Perhaps expectations were that little bit more relaxed among the mother's folks? Uncles and cousins were a little more indulgent of the growing youth Crazy Horse, than was the case among his father's people? In the biography I set out what we know of the young Crazy Horse's stays among the Miniconjou, including extended stays in 1851-2 and 1858-9. When he was recovering from the No Water shooting in 1870, it was among the Miniconjous that he convalesced. I think that's a very significant fact, indicating his comfort among the people of his mother.

However, it's just untrue to believe that he was not an Oglala. The Northern Oglala divisional council elected him as Shirt Wearer in 1868, and as tribal war chief in 1870. According to He Dog's nephew Joseph Eagle Hawk, who acknowledges that Crazy Horse's mother was "from Cheyenne River",Crazy Horse's father Worm was "an original Oglala Sioux". Again this is a statement from a contemporary - someone who knew these people in life. Such statements could be multiplied many times.

On ethnocentrism, yes, we all have to be aware of it - but the old-time Lakota had their own version of Manifest Destiny, too, you know. Many smaller farming tribes were subjected to appalling aggression by the Lakota. It doesn't make me any less fascinated by the Lakota, nor less impressed by their rich culture and social organization. It's just that all people are flawed in one way or other, as individuals or in groups. It's no good looking back to some idealised past community and think, well, they had all the answers. They didn't, and neither do we. We have, as the Lakota song, says, to accept these realities and "Take Courage!"

PILA MAYE

Kingsley Bray
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by ricemclean on Dec 21, 2006, 10:11am

Kingsley--

Great, great thread and I'm enjoying your part in this fascinating discussion. My parents have gotten your book for Spouse's Christmas present; it's at the top of his list! Can't wait to see his face ...

I just wanted to add another dimension--a personal one; *sigh*--to the conversation. It is an odd feeling indeed to learn someone is writing a history of an Indian family member, and perhaps a bit weirder to know an Anglo is doing so. I don't know how to put the feeling in words. It was quite by accident I learned a young woman is doing a dissertation (since then, I have been providing some primary source material) on one my grandfather's contributions to the tribe--it was strange, like someone was examining my family from the outside; there's a sense of "hey, it's my history!" So I can--to a point--understand the position the Clown family is in. But if this woman's work can help me better comprehend the more shadowy--even some of the negative aspects--part of my heritage, all the better.

Once again, I can't wait to see my husband's response to your book! Have a great season.

Regards,
Leyton McLean
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by kingsleybray on Dec 21, 2006, 10:28am

Thanks, Leyton. I do understand something of the alienating feeling you might get if you learnt that someone from the other side of the world is researching your family history. And I understand an ingrained suspicion from reservation communities mired for generations in poverty that anyone from that outside world must be making megabucks out of - let's call it their grandma's memories. In most cases where I've been able to make personal contact - regrettably, not with the Clown family - I've been able to convince people of my good faith.

To close on what I at any rate see as a positive note, when I parted with a Hunkpapa-Sihasapa friend a couple of months ago, she told me that, apart from her status as a tribal historian and story-teller, what she was REALLY (twinkle in eye) interested in was ENGLISH HISTORY! So I think we'll have completed the circle when I get a Native American researcher asking me about my family's account of conditions in 20th Century industrial Yorkshire, or my grandfather's WWI service in the English cavalry . . . I'd be happy to help!

Kingsley Bray
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by grahamew on Dec 21, 2006, 1:09pm

Sometimes I think it CAN be more interesting when an outsider - albeit one knowledgeable about and sympathetic to the material and the sources involved - pens a history like this; someone who is less tied to one view or another of the protagonist; who can bring an objective eye to the sources available. I keep going back to Sugden's book on Tecumseh (and if you haven't read it, now's the time) and I think Kingsley's CH should be viewed in a similar light and as a comparable achievement - but I guess new sources/resources could well turn up and, as here, add to the enjoyment (or mine at least) of the debate. To be honest, it's not that long ago at all that it was taken as gospel that Crazy Horse's mother was Spotted Tail's sister. Look at the progress that's been made - and when books like Kingsley's engender more debate, that can only be healthy for those with an interest, cultural, academic or otherwise, in the subject.

I still feel Modern Times is more 'Dylanesque' than Dylan. I like it, but I prefer the two previous albums!
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by clw on Dec 22, 2006, 5:31pm

I too have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion and have learned a lot from ephriam and Mr. Bray. To read a book and be able enter into a discussion with it's author is a rare privledge. Wopila.

One of the things that I loved about Mr. Bray's book was his treatment of the time when the bands were coming in to the agencies to settle and the politics (NDN) of the period. I know of no other book that addresses this in such depth and I found it facinating.

In fairness however, let me leave you with this thought.

Quote:
They also sent a copy of a 1920 interview with Leo Combing, one of Julia Iron Cedar's brothers, in which he carefully explained some of the family's connections with the Crazy Horse family. The interview is transcribed in my 'Notes on the Genealogy of Crazy Horse'. It clearly indicates that Crazy Horse's father (Crazy Horse Sr., or Worm) and Woman's Breast were two different men. Leo I reiterate was born in 1851 and was contemporary with the principals in our story.


Two years before his 1920 interview, (Leo) Combing's younger brother (Peter) Wolf was shot in the back by masked white men in front of his wife and children. The assassins told his wife it was because he was a member of the Crazy Horse family. At the time of the 1920 interview, Combing was the keeper of CH's pipe and bundle. Hardly surprising that he insisted that Waglula and Woman's Breast were two different men and worth considering, I think.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by dietmar on Dec 27, 2006, 4:30am

Hope you all had a great Christmas. :)

I took a look at Wikipedia and found that the information there about Crazy Horse seems to be based on the same sources than the DVD is. here is an edit:

"Crazy Horse's father, who was also named Crazy Horse (born 1810) but took the name Worm after passing the name to his son, was Lakota and his mother, Rattling Blanket Woman (born 1814), was Lakota. Rattling Blanket Woman was the daughter of Black Buffalo and White Cow (also known as Iron Cane). Black Buffalo is the one who stopped Lewis and Clark on the Bad River. She was the younger sister of One Horn (born 1794) and Lone Horn (born 1804). She also had an older sister named Good Looking Woman (born 1810) and a younger sister named Looks At It (born 1815), later given the name They Are Afraid of Her. Looks At It had a much bigger build than her two older sisters. She got her second name because she had married a man named Stands Up For Him. They had a child. When the child died of a disease, he tried to take her south away from her family. A fight ensued. She beat him up and thus the name They Are Afraid Of Her was bestowed on her. Rattling Blanket Woman also had another older half-brother named Hump who was born in 1811. Hump's mother was Good Voice Woman and Black Buffalo's second wife. Hump and Waglula became best friends. When Waglula began to court Hump's half sister, he presented three horses to the family head Lone Horn (the older sibling One Horn had died earlier after being gored by a buffalo, making Lone Horn the oldest male and head man of the family. Their father, Black Buffalo, had died in about 1820 near Devil's Tower, or as the Lakota called it Grey Horn Butte, of sickness.). In return for the three horses he hoped he could take Rattling Blanket Woman as his wife as was the custom. But the family's women wanted eight horses, and apparently they had the final say. So Hump volunteered to go on a raiding party with Waglula. They brought back 16 horses, four loaded with meat they had captured from a Crow hunting party and presented it to the family. Thus Rattling Blanket Woman and Waglula became husband and wife. Crazy Horse was born with the name 'In The Wilderness' or 'Among the Trees' (in Lakota the name is phonetically pronounced as Cha-O-Ha) meaning he was one with nature. His nickname was Curly. He had the same light curly hair of his mother. In 1844 Waglula (aka Worm) went on a buffalo hunt. He came across a Lakota village under attack by Crow warriors. He led his small contingent in to rescue the village. Corn who was the head man of the village (the famed painter, George Catlin painted his picture while visiting the tribe in 1832 entitled "Corn, Minicouju Warrior") had lost his wife in the raid. In gratitude he gave Waglula his two eldest daughters Iron Between Horns (age 18) and Kills Enemy (age 17) as wives. Corn's youngest daughter, Red Leggins, who was 15 at the time requested to go with her sisters and all would become Waglula's wives. When he got back to his village and his wife, Rattling Blanket Woman, found out about his new wives she became distraught. She and Waglula had been attempting to conceive another child, but had failed. The arrival of the new wives made her think she had lost favor with Waglula because she could not get pregnant. At the time they were camped along the White River. Without discussing it with Waglula she went out and hung herself from a cottonwood tree. Waglula mourned her death for four years and was celibate during that time. Upon hearing what had happened to her sister, Good Looking Woman, who also found she could not conceive, left her husband and came to Waglula to offer herself as a replacement wife for her sister. Waglula turned her down as a wife, but relented in allowing her to raise her sister's son, Crazy Horse. Later, Crazy Horse's other aunt They Are Afraid of Her helped in the raising of Crazy Horse. She helped teach him to hunt and take care of himself. They Are Afraid of Her was a very independent woman."

There is also information about Little Hawk I found interesting:
"Crazy Horse was in the Lakota camp with his younger brother, High Horse (son of Iron Between Horns and Waglula) and his cousin who he grew up with, Little Hawk (Little Hawk was actually the nephew of his maternal step grandfather, Corn), when it was attacked by Lt Grattan and 26 other troopers during the 'Grattan Fight'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse

I think this is worth a discussion.

Best wishes

Dietmar

P.S.: Black Buffalo was a Brule, wasn´t he?

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Dec 27, 2006, 8:52am

Hmmm . . . where did Wakipedia get its info? Coincidence?
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by admin on Dec 27, 2006, 12:24pm

Anyone can edit the Wikipedia entries, which is why it is not a reliable source. I once met a woman whose hobby was editing grammatical errors in Wikipedia entries!
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by harpskiddie on Dec 27, 2006, 1:16pm

All:

While searching for another title, I noticed that Dutch Hardorff had written what I think he called a 'preliminary' genealogical study of Crazy Horse. I am not big into this particular topic, but do find it exceedingly interesting, as well as very confusing, which is why I read the thread all the time, but seldom have anything to contribute. I just wonder if anyone has read Hardorff's book - he usually does great research.

As to Wikipedia - I think you can tell who actually enetered the information. Diane could probably comment more accurately on this subject than can I.

Gordie
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by grahamew on Dec 27, 2006, 3:18pm

Two things:

Yes, I've read Hardorff, but it's a few years old now and it's clear from this thread, the book and the DVD that more detailed research has been done since.

The Wikipedia entry refers specifically to the DVD (though not in Dietmar's excerpt), so that may be the source of the above information.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by dietmar on Jan 2, 2007, 4:49pm

I received the DVD today. The Wikipedia text indeed says exactly what is on the DVD.
There´s plenty of more detailed information about the families of Crazy Horse, Lone Horn, Black Buffalo, Corn, Hump and others. Very interesting, moving and great to watch (as Catherine and clw promised ;) ).
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by clw on Jan 14, 2007, 9:14am

Dietmar:

I somehow missed this post last week. (This board is sometimes a little hard to navigate, but I'm getting the hang of it.) I just wanted thank you for your opinion of the DVD.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by dietmar on Jan 14, 2007, 12:53pm

I wish we could discuss some of the information on the DVD, maybe when some more board members will have seen it...
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Jan 23, 2007, 6:49am

I have read this thread with much interest. I have read a couple of things that I would like to speak on.
First of all the correct pronunciation of Minniconjou is Mini-ko-ju. The 'n' was actually a phonetic 'n' with a long tail like the 'n' in sing. Almost silent...where the tongue doesn't touch the roof of the mouth like it does in name. When the priests were putting together the written version of the Lakota language they quite often used phonetic symbols to help in their pronunciation. When they sent it to press, the printer didn't have an 'n' character with a long tail (just like my keyboard) so they made it a regular 'n' so that now when those who have spent little or no time on the rez say it, they say it wrong. Yes, and even spell it wrong. So when the Park Service put up the memorial they wanted it to have the same phonetic sound as the members of that band would pronounce it...in a show of respect. That's why it's spelled as it is...by asking members of that band how it should be said properly.
Secondly I read somewhere in this thread (and in many, many other places) the name 'Roman Nose'. I can't believe that a Lakota would choose a name that says he has the same nose as the people who live in the capital of Italy. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure out that the name makes no sense for a Lakota...or even a Cheyenne. How come in all the years that name has been in print nobody ever questioned it? The name was Roaming Nose...meaning going to other camps or gatherings and sticking your nose in their business. How do I know? I went to the rez and asked. I got laughed at and then corrected. It was all so simple AND it makes total sense. I was told it was also an endearing nickname for a traveler from another tribe.

Just like in the English language we might refer to someone who travels alot, say his real name is Bob Smith, with the term "globe trotter" and another writes "globe trotter" down thinking that is the person's actual name and years later Bob Smith only exists as "globe trotter" in any and all records.

So I think some of the names may be suspect. Either they gave wrong info, the interpreter misinterpreted (now there's a rarity...LOL), or the seekers had an agenda.

I find the whole discussion of oral and written history to be quite amusing. Oral history is criticized indirectly with the English speaking belief that "if you tell one person something and they pass it on and that person passes it on and so on to ten people the story will be completely different once it comes back to you." We learn this as children. But what they don't teach us is that the written word may not change, but agreement over what it means is constantly shifting. One good thing about the Lakota not having a written language...they didn't have to pay those high attorney fees to try to convince somebody what something says. So maybe the written word isn't solid after all. Maybe it just looks solid. Which is more important what you see or what you hear? Consider what a powerful source hearing is to a blind man. Or how important seeing is to a deaf person.

I think they both have value. I'm not prejudice against one or the other. I'll check out the book. The DVD I have seen several times.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by shatonska on Jan 23, 2007, 10:39am

ciao brock

roman nose is related to the shape of the nose , ancient romans had a big curved nose , that's the origin of that word , in italy we use the word aquiline not roman for such noses

probably the translators used roman to explain the meaning of oglala and other tribes names , many native people had beatifull aquiline noses
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Jan 23, 2007, 1:47pm

Aquiline . . . I like that . . . my nose is sorta like that . . . aquiline.

Again we have the issue of losing something in translation . . .
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Jan 23, 2007, 3:05pm

Thank you for your friendly salutation Shatonska. But I do hope you're joking with me. Otherwise what little logic I have in my tiny little brain is going to tell me to get off this chat room in a hurry.

Most of the translators were young men that had Lakota mothers and soldier, trapper, or trader fathers. They had little or no education and most could not write so somebody else wrote the responses for them. I really question if translators even knew there was an Italy let alone the shapes of their noses.

Another observation I've made on this thread is this: In the Combing interview of 1920 why was the question of whether Waglula and Woman's Breast even asked? It would seem that the questioner would have had to have been suspicious (even back then) that they were the same person otherwise why even bring it up.....unless they were just joking around. Also was the interview before or after the Wolf murder? I think a human response would be to separate one's self from being Wolf's brother after an incident like that just so one could die a natural death.
I guess I'll find that out when the book arrives and I've had a chance to study the notes. :-)
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by shatonska on Jan 23, 2007, 3:20pm

brock

an indian name was big foot , why could'nt a man be called big or aquiline nose?, instead of using big it was nicer to use the word roman ( typical english 1800 literature , it doesn't matter the origin of the name or knowing italy ) translators told the name to officiers or traders probably by touching the nose and showing the shape to help and that particular name is born , it is strange but it is easy , the cheyenne name of the cheyenne roman nose was woquini , that means aquiline ( or maybe big ) nose (until someone say different , eheheheheh )
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Jan 23, 2007, 4:14pm

If one wants to get the difficulty of using interpreters see THE CUSTER MYTH Chapter: The Sioux THE STORIES OF LOW DOG, CROW KING, HUMP, IRON THUNDER

Capt. Howe: "I took pencil and paper and with Low Dog's consent noted it down. I have it almost word for word as translated by the interpreter, but I regret exceedingly that the interpreter did not give me a literal translation. All the Indians use a great many gestures and signs, and the interpreters tell me that it is very difficult to do more than give the substance of what they say."
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by clw on Jan 23, 2007, 5:56pm

[image]


Quote:
In the Combing interview of 1920 why was the question of whether Waglula and Woman's Breast even asked? It would seem that the questioner would have had to have been suspicious (even back then) that they were the same person otherwise why even bring it up.....unless they were just joking around. Also was the interview before or after the Wolf murder?
Great observation. The interview was AFTER the Wolf murder.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by ladonna on Jan 30, 2007, 3:53pm


Quote:
Thanks, Leyton. I do understand something of the alienating feeling you might get if you learnt that someone from the other side of the world is researching your family history. And I understand an ingrained suspicion from reservation communities mired for generations in poverty that anyone from that outside world must be making megabucks out of - let's call it their grandma's memories. In most cases where I've been able to make personal contact - regrettably, not with the Clown family - I've been able to convince people of my good faith.

To close on what I at any rate see as a positive note, when I parted with a Hunkpapa-Sihasapa friend a couple of months ago, she told me that, apart from her status as a tribal historian and story-teller, what she was REALLY (twinkle in eye) interested in was ENGLISH HISTORY! So I think we'll have completed the circle when I get a Native American researcher asking me about my family's account of conditions in 20th Century industrial Yorkshire, or my grandfather's WWI service in the English cavalry . . . I'd be happy to help!

Kingsley Bray


Kingsley ;)I am finally able to post on this site. I just wanted to support you and your research. I hope that in the future we can work together on the history of my people. I want so much to learn more of your people and who you really are.

For the record, Kingsley did his best to contact people on the reservations and talked to people on all sides of the issue.
Jack, whom is a dear friend kept calling everyone he could think of on this issue. In some cases people on Cheyenne River refuse to speak to him so an opportunity was missed.

I listened to Kingsley speak in Chadron NE. and it is the first time I can really say that that a non native spoke from our peoples point of view.
The people in Cheyenne River have a story that need to be heard too. As historians it is the research that is important. I am waiting to see the Video.
The only way to get the word out about our people is thought peaceful debates.
LaDonna Brave Bull
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by apsalooka on Apr 23, 2007, 5:06am

Here a picture of Womans Dress...I think he played a major role in the arrest of Crazy Horse.

[image]

Henri
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by doharris on Apr 27, 2007, 2:57am

Hey, people, I make this post for one reason. In light of what Brock has been posting, and before we be over taken by "new evidence" perhaps we ought to consider the evidence of Mr. Bray and the comments of Mr. Dickson. It is to bring into view previous discussions of this issue that I make this comment .
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by ephriam on Apr 27, 2007, 9:14am

I have finally gotten a copy of the new DVD and have had a chance to review its content. For those of you who have not seen the presentation, it is well done, rich with detail. I enjoyed learning more about the family histories.

However, as to the core question of whether Worm and Woman's Breast are in fact the same individual, I remain unconvinced. I think I have posted this before, but we have both of these individuals in the census records, and they overlap in 1881. We can show in the reservation records Worm surrendering at the Spotted Tail Agency in April 1877, transferred to the Red Cloud Agency in May 1877 and returning to Spotted Tail following the death of his son in Sept. 1877. He appears in the Rosebud Agency census taken in the fall of 1881. There is a gap in the census records between 1881 and 1886; then in the 1886 census records, "Crazy Horse's mother" (Worm's wife) as a widow.

As to Woman's Breast (who census records show was a decade younger than Worm), he appears to have surrendered at Fort Keogh during the 1880-81 period, was transferred to the Standing Rock Agency in the summer of 1881 and was counted in the Sitting Bull Surrender Census in the fall of 1881. So, at the same time Worm is being counted down at Rosebud, Woman's Breast is being counted at Standing Rock. Woman's Breast was then transferred to Cheyenne River in the spring of 1882 and he appears in the regular annual census at Cheyenne River from 1886 through his death in 1900.

In addition, we have the comments of Worm recorded in September 1877 by Lieut. Lemly, in which he states that he had three children, Crazy Horse being the last surviving one. If Crazy Horse Sr. (Worm) had other children through Red Legs as claimed by the Clown family, then why did he not mention his other children?

I think the evidence is clear that these are two seperate families. However, I agree with Kingsley that these two families are related, by marriage.

ephriam
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Apr 29, 2007, 9:48pm

Ephraim,
I talked to the family spokesman last night and read him your analysis. He told me that he is listed in the ration records first as 'Kills At Night' and then as 'Breast'. His probate lists him as 'Woman's Breast' and other relative probates list him as 'Breast of a Female'. If you wish to have an interview with the family spokesman directly leave me a message above and I'll get you his number. I know in the DVD it talks about 'Kills at Night' and 'Woman's Breast' but the DVD did not get into the detail of the ration records or the variations of the name. They also told me he's not the same one as listed on the census of Standing Rock.
You can also ask them about the Lemly statement. My personal take on that is with Sept 1877 being when Crazy Horse was killed, the paranoid mood of the time, and suddenly being asked about any additional children by a soldier, he probably was just being a good father.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Apr 30, 2007, 2:42am

Ephraim, A couple of additional notes:

The Clown family knew the actual physical description of the Grattan Fight terrain before we got there. As luck would have it Steve Fulmer's grandfather had owned and helped till the land where the battlefield was. Their description was quite surprising to the bookstore manager Pat Fullmer, Steve's mom, and she had to go get her dad (who I believe was in his 80's). We learned that the hills that the Clown family described had been mostly flattened to make more usable farmland. Only a small portion of the hill where Crazy Horse was is still there. That's where I got that shot of the field. The slough was filled in, once again, for more farmland. This happened when Steve's grandfather was young. It is not very well known or written about, especially in the detail they described it. Yet they had never physically been or seen any pictures. I have Steve on video tape talking about this, but we decided we didn't want to make this a defensive piece. So it doesn't appear in the final product. That's at Fort Laramie NPS. That's somebody that can be called.

Also at Deer Medicine Rock there is a rock with a carving of Crazy Horse's death vision that their grandfather told them about. They went to the owner of the land who's family has owned it since about 1880 named Bailey. They went by features of the land, found it and interpreted it all before Bailey's eyes. Bailey had known about this carving since he was a boy (Bailey's at least in his 70's). But he had never witnessed the good medicine they used to find it. He is a firm believer in the family because of what he saw. I'm sure he would talk to you. If you leave a message I could probably find you his number.

There's a couple of the back notes on the making of the DVD.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by ephriam on Apr 30, 2007, 5:52pm

Brock:

I would love to visit with the family to learn additional details. You can email me at ephriam3@yahoo.com with details of how I might contact them.

Do you known which ration records Woman's Breast is listed as Kills at Night? I assume Cheyenne River?

I do not agree with the comment regarding the 1881 Standing Rock Agency census. As you can see below, it is the same family. Woman's Breast is shown married to Red Legs and has two children with him, a son Maca (Lakota for Wolf; = Peter Wolf) and a daughter Iron Cedar, the name for Julia Clown. This precisely matches the family oral history and probate records:

A-ze Tits 63
Hu-sa-sa-la Red Legs wife 63
Ma-ca [not translated] son 22
Hante Maza win Iron Cedar 12

I agree that it is possible the Worm was unwilling to share additional information about family members to an army officer in 1877. But then how can one explain the comment by He Dog, a close friend of Crazy Horse, speaking in 1930 who said that Worm had three children, with Crazy Horse as the middle child? This matches what Worm said that night in 1877.

I am certainly not questioning or disrespecting the family's oral traditions, however, as historians, I think we have to compare all sources against other sources regardless of their origin. Just want to get it right!

ephriam
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Apr 30, 2007, 11:53pm

Ephraim:
I just got off the horn with Doug...the person you'll be talking to. I misunderstood and your 1881 Standing Rock is correct except they called it the 'Northern Camps' and I understood that as Cheyenne River. I apologize for that one. He said you'll find Kills At Night at Fort Bennent, Owl River, and Forest City...and probably at Upper Platte. Also at Pine Ridge. It was a shell game to keep the agencies confused so they would not find Waglula. There also would be other Lakota named Kills At Night and they would set up the ration card. So whatever name he chose there were multiple Kills At Nights of different ages. Then maybe the one that set up the ration card at say Owl River would go to say Pine Ridge to get their rations at the same time Waglula would go in with several elders in a group to mix in at the Owl River location. They would go on the first day because the agencies would rush them through and they didn't have time to wire the other agency in time to catch multiple rations. He would state he was a visiting relative and show the ration card to say Fort Bennent one month, Owl River the next and so on so it would appear he WAS a visitor. They almost caught him as they questioned him on the Kills At Night name (someone at the agency remembered the real Kills At Night) so he changed it to Breast. Other Lakota would have the same name to create confusion and the whole process started all over again.

Oh, and on the He Dog statement, Doug said he was talking about the children that survived Waglula. But for some reason it was interpreted as just three children. As far as the Crazy Horse middle child statement Doug believes He Dog was confused after all he was quite old...or it could have been misinterpreted. Doug said He Dog was one of the people that protected Waglula up until Waglula's death.

I'll e-mail you his number.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by clw on May 1, 2007, 8:30am

We have to understand the surprising depth of the protection, thru disinformation, that went on behind the scenes and view the census records in that context. Even before the LBH, Waglula didn't list himself as a headman, knowing that it would lead the government to Crazy Horse. I admire the years of work by historians like Ephraim and Kingsley that have been invested in researching the census records. They provide the gridwork that allows the families fill in the background and show us how this probably played out in reality, which I find just facinating!
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on May 1, 2007, 9:41pm

Not that it's a big deal but some interesting and fun info on the names Ephriam came up with on the family that the family shared with me yesterday evening that can be passed along. The family spells Iron Cedar Hante-sa Maza wi. She got that name because she was born near a creek where there was lots of petrified wood...hence Iron Cedar. Red Leggins or Red Legs they spelled Hunska-sa. She got her name because when she was small she ran through some buck brush and scratched her legs up and then they were wrapped in some kind of cloth, that cloth turned red from the scratches underneath leaking through...hence Red Leggins. And Maca killed a wolf at a young age, hence Wolf or Maca. And of course Breast, or 'Tits' as the agency crudely has it, was a shared name with others primarily for the benefit of rations.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on May 3, 2007, 4:47pm

This is actually for crzhrs and shatonska from a different thread, but I had trouble posting to that thread as it kicked back two of my posts as prohibited. Must be a software flaw. Anyway, the documentation on the Frenchman is in the burial report...but he is listed as a 'white captive' and was buried in a tree on a scaffold Indian style. He had on buckskin and his red hair was in a pony-tail. His first name was Jean but it was too hard for me to work out the phonetics over the phone to the last name as it is very French.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on May 4, 2007, 2:02pm

Ephriam:
The family wishes to thank you for your interest and said if you wish to post any news from your talks with them, they have no objections.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on May 9, 2007, 12:49am

Diane,
I'd be happy to respond to you on the Hump thread...but I still get a message that I'm "not allowed to respond on 'that' thread". I'm not quite sure why...but I think it's at your end.
But thank you for the kind words anyway.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by ephriam on May 9, 2007, 5:47pm

Brock:

Thank you. I enjoyed the conversation with Doug as well. I will call him back with some additional questions to clarify a couple of issues before I post any thoughts. Thank you for hooking us up!

ephriam
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by admin on May 12, 2007, 10:32pm


Quote:
Diane,
I'd be happy to respond to you on the Hump thread...but I still get a message that I'm "not allowed to respond on 'that' thread". I'm not quite sure why...but I think it's at your end.
But thank you for the kind words anyway.


Brock, I can't imagine why you can't respond to the Hump thread; you have posted there before. I don't have a way to manage individual threads, so it's nothing I've done. Perhaps you were not logged in at the time you last tried to post.

Has anyone else had such a problem?

Diane
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by fsheridan on Nov 12, 2007, 5:25pm

Just a quick question...I'm new to this and was wondering...the brother of Crazy Horse...That was called Little Hawk...who was killed...Was he half Cheyenne...and can any one tell me who his parents were...I think there is some connection to the Spotted Tail family...Were any of the siblings in the Spotted Tail family half Cheyenne....thank you in advance....

Frank Sheridan
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by lmiller202 on Dec 6, 2007, 10:46am


Quote:
jjm - The pipe and bundle of Ta'sunke Witco have been passed down thru the Clown family of the Mnicojou band on CRR. Waglula spent his final years (1881 - 1900) there and changed his name twice to avoid government retaliation. One of the names he used was Woman's Breast. His youngest daughter, Iron Cedar (b. 1865, her mother was Red Leggins) or Julia Iron Cedar married Amos Clown. Afraid of Her was living with them when she died in 1889. So Julia Clown was the sister of Crazy Horse. Remember that the to the Lakota, half siblings were just plain siblings -- they were all the children of Waglula. Bray follows the reservation census records of the period and doesn't consider Julia Clown as Waglula's daughter -- says her father was Woman's Breast. Therein lies the conflict.

Efrim points out in a previous post that "In the fall of 1881, a census was conducted at both Standing Rock and at Rosebud at about the same time. Woman's Breast appears in the 1881 Standing Rock Agency census; Crazy Horse (the father) appears in the 1881 Rosebud Agency census. They therefore cannot be the same person. " The family states that was the year he moved from Rosebud to CRR and changed his name so he could have easily appeared on both census. IMHO, those census records are far from dependable. These people were in fear of their lives and hid their identity with fictitious names and constant movement. Only in recent years did the family feel safe enough to begin the work of telling their history and documenting their lineage. They want it recorded for the children. The coincidence of Bray publishing at the same time and refuting their claim has been painful and frustrating. These are good and honest people who I'm proud to call my friends.

Gordie, there is a second DVD coming out Part 2 - Defending the Homeland. It will have the battle stories and I can't wait!! I've heard some of the stories, but I'll let the People tell them. As it should be. I know they have been working with the NPS regarding changing the placement of the different camps and archeology appears to be backing them up. But I don't know all the details. Should be extremely interesting.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by lmiller202 on Dec 6, 2007, 10:47am


Quote:
jjm - The pipe and bundle of Ta'sunke Witco have been passed down thru the Clown family of the Mnicojou band on CRR. Waglula spent his final years (1881 - 1900) there and changed his name twice to avoid government retaliation. One of the names he used was Woman's Breast. His youngest daughter, Iron Cedar (b. 1865, her mother was Red Leggins) or Julia Iron Cedar married Amos Clown. Afraid of Her was living with them when she died in 1889. So Julia Clown was the sister of Crazy Horse. Remember that the to the Lakota, half siblings were just plain siblings -- they were all the children of Waglula. Bray follows the reservation census records of the period and doesn't consider Julia Clown as Waglula's daughter -- says her father was Woman's Breast. Therein lies the conflict.

Efrim points out in a previous post that "In the fall of 1881, a census was conducted at both Standing Rock and at Rosebud at about the same time. Woman's Breast appears in the 1881 Standing Rock Agency census; Crazy Horse (the father) appears in the 1881 Rosebud Agency census. They therefore cannot be the same person. " The family states that was the year he moved from Rosebud to CRR and changed his name so he could have easily appeared on both census. IMHO, those census records are far from dependable. These people were in fear of their lives and hid their identity with fictitious names and constant movement. Only in recent years did the family feel safe enough to begin the work of telling their history and documenting their lineage. They want it recorded for the children. The coincidence of Bray publishing at the same time and refuting their claim has been painful and frustrating. These are good and honest people who I'm proud to call my friends.

Gordie, there is a second DVD coming out Part 2 - Defending the Homeland. It will have the battle stories and I can't wait!! I've heard some of the stories, but I'll let the People tell them. As it should be. I know they have been working with the NPS regarding changing the placement of the different camps and archeology appears to be backing them up. But I don't know all the details. Should be extremely interesting.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by lmiller202 on Dec 6, 2007, 10:48am

Not to be disrespectful but, I doubt that he changed his name twice to avoid government retaliation-EVERYONE knew who he was and where he lived
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by clw on Dec 6, 2007, 11:02am

Well that's quite a sweeping statement. Could you elaborate?
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by lmiller202 on Dec 6, 2007, 12:24pm

I tend to stay clear of family oral history-I have been researching Native American’s for 12 years, including Cherokee, Choctaw, Cheyenne and Lakota ..my daughter-in-law is the 3rd great grand niece of Crazy Horse, oral history says, which would mean a half brother or sister was her ggg-grandfather or mother ...since Crazy Horse had no sisters named White Cow, that leaves a half brother named Red Bear..this could be an unknown child of either Worm or Rattle Blanket Woman..oral history has it the parents of Red Bear (Oglala-Kiyuksas?) was Savage Bear & Wehany so that leaves out Worm? Anyone know who Wehany is?
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by ephriam on Dec 6, 2007, 2:57pm

I would agree that oral history can sometimes have its challenges, but so does every type of historical source. Whether we are talking about a diary, map, photograph, later recollection, or oral history passed through several generations, each provides some information, leaves some information out, is told from the perspective of the person who recorded it, and often has aspects that are inaccurate or misinterpreted.

I would add that I think the issue here between the identity of Worm and Woman's Breast is not the census records (having worked with Lakota census records for many years, I can testify to Brock's comments about how many errors they can have).

Rather, the issue is that we have are several competing oral histories about the family history of Crazy Horse -- and specifically about Worm. I just returned from Pine Ridge over the holiday where I met with folks from several Oglala families. They have a strong and equally compelling oral history that differs from that of the Clown family descendants.

In the end, it will be the combination of ALL of these sources, the oral history together with the documents, that will probably give us our best opportunity to work out these kinds of details.

ephriam
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by ladonna on Dec 6, 2007, 6:52pm

ephriam
I have to agree with you, after doing all the familky histories of my tribe, one family does not have all the information. We need to take small step in recording histories from all points of view. Oral, written with in the tribe and different tribes to get the full story.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by apsalooka on Jan 22, 2008, 1:56pm

I am re-reading the book, To Be An Indian: an Oral History, and on page 63 there is an interview with George Kills in Sight. He was at that time ( 1967 ) chairman of the tribal land enterprise. He recalls that Crazy Horse was sort of related to his grandmother on his fathers side...a cousin. His grandfather was Big Crow.
Can any-one comfirm that he was/is related to Crazy Horse??
Henri
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by dietmar on Jan 24, 2008, 7:13am

Hi Henri,

I think it was stated somewhere in this thread that Big Crow was rejected as a relative of Crazy Horse by the Family of Crazy Horse (Clown). But I don´t know the details.

Best wishes

Dietmar
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Jan 24, 2008, 2:11pm

Howdy Dietmar and Henry,

Seth Big Crow (Great Grandson to Big Crow) started the Crazy Horse Defense Fund with True Clown. True Clown was the son of James Clown who married his first cousin...thus he was ostracized from the family. True Clown stole the family cedar chest containing all the old photos and three sacred pipes...one belonging to Wagula. True Clown was not a family member in good standing. Seth Big Crow's great grandfather married Good Looking Woman (Rattling Blanket's sister). Good Looking Woman left Big Crow when her sister hanged herself. (According to the Clown family she could not have children anyway and it was quite common to part ways if the wife could not bear children). She came there to raise Crazy Horse.

Seth Big Crow's claim is that Good Looking Woman had a child with Big Crow...the rest of the Clown family says no. (I find it hard to believe that a mother would abandon her only child to raise her younger sister's child...in this case Crazy Horse). She did not marry Waglula but lived as an in-law with him. Anyway True Clown died early in the Crazy Horse Defense Fund attempt and Seth Big Crow took it over. He won the case against Hormel Brewing and Coors the distributor. They garnered $150,000. During the recent court hearings on the true heirs this money was stolen out of the bank by Seth Big Crow and his attorney. The judge was anything but happy. Seth Big Crow died last year.

Probably more than you bargained for...but what the heck.

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by dietmar on Jan 24, 2008, 3:02pm

Hi brock,

thanks for the details...

I hope the family got the pipes and the photos back eventually... or are they lost?

Greetings from Germany

Dietmar
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by apsalooka on Jan 24, 2008, 5:40pm

Found this "Enlistment Paper", somewere on the internet. As you can see, Crazy Horse is enlisted as scout in the year 1877.

[image]

Henri
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Jan 25, 2008, 12:56pm

Is the date 12th of May?

Didn't CH come in late May? And would he have so quickly signed up as a scout so soon after coming in from doing everything he could to oppose the White Man?
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by clw on Jan 25, 2008, 2:14pm

Horse, I just checked in Bray's book. Crazy Horse came in on May 7 and Clark signed him as a scout on May 12, sure enough. He was top sergeant of newly formed E Co -- Little Big Man, Little Hawk, and No Water (!) as sergeants reporting to him. They were issued Sharps and Remmington revolvers, with ammo.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Jan 25, 2008, 7:16pm

Dietmar,
They recovered Waglula's pipe. True Clown had given it to Fools Crow and the family visited his son. Fools Crow's son gave it back (Fools Crow was deceased by this time). This is the pipe they smudge every three months on the solstice. It has a very long stem (about from my finger tips to my shoulder...I'm 5' 11" to give perspective) and has an inch wide metal band wrapped all the way up the stem in a candy cane like fashion. They allowed me the privilege of smoking it...they held it while I smoked.

Henri,

As far as the document that you dug up...I believe this was seen by Crazy Horse as a vehicle that would allow him to possess guns...nothing more. He never performed the duties. When he was actually called upon as a scout to help track down Chief Joseph, he was rather reluctant and only agreed under pressure and even then that was translated wrong.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by bc on Jan 25, 2008, 10:06pm

Hi, I've been following this thread and the American Horse thread and find them very interesting. I am really learning a lot here and appreciate what you are doing.

However, when you bring up all the Indian names, I have to ask this question.

Who was the person or who were the persons who translated all of these Indian names into English and were they sober when they did it? Also were any or many of these translations very accurate? Thanks
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by harpskiddie on Jan 25, 2008, 10:55pm

bc:

From my limited knowledge, I would say that the names are more or less LITERAL TRANSLATIONS of the Lakota [or other language] but that many nuances are missed in that type of translation. As well, most names captured a wider image than the literal translation. As an example the Lakota for Sitting Bull does translate to Sitting Bull, or perhaps more properly to Buffalo Bull Sitting Down, but at least one writer expands the IDEA of the name to mean A Buffalo Bull Resides Among Us.

It's like a name translated as Soaring Hawk [or Hawk Soaring] painting a picture of that hawk soaring on thermals and attempting to convey that picture.

I used to have a Cheyenne name which translated as Walks In The Wind, and was meant to convey that the wind was always blowing, usually in my face, wherever I went - it followed me around. The people who gave me the name knew exactly what it meant, and so would any Cheyenne hearing it, but it would likely be translated by a non-Cheyenne as Wind Walker.

I wouldn't touch that "sober" question with a ten foot pole

Gordie
MC
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Jan 26, 2008, 8:43pm

To add on to what Harpskiddie said, names like Roman Nose were actually mispelled and were really Roaming Nose (at least in Lakota...further I don't think the Lakota spent much time studying Julius Ceasar and the Roman Empire...there is no Lakota word for this kind of Roman) or in the case of one of the families I'm working with, the Clown family, their grandfather was actually known as Amos Heyoka (recorded on the ration records by this name in his early years) which is a sacred name. In the Lakota language and culture heyoka is known as a 'thunder dreamer' or one who gets his power from the 'wakinyans' (thunder beings). They also quite often did things the opposite of what was accepted. For instance when it was cold they complained of the heat and wore little to no clothes while in the heat they might bundle up. They made people laugh which was said to be a healing. Because there is no English word for 'heyoka', the translators did the best they could so since heyokas make people laugh they were translated as Clowns. Quite a difference in meanings when you reflect upon it. And to complicate things another translator could have just as easily named him Thunder Dreamer and nobody would have squawked. Without understanding the language and the nuances of the culture those attempting to sort out the genealogy are at the mercy of the early translators who were trying to translate the best they could. Some obviously better than others.

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Jan 28, 2008, 8:15am

Is it any wonder then why when Indians talked about the Custer fight what was translated usually ended up being different than what the Indians actually meant?
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by harpskiddie on Jan 28, 2008, 10:02am

horse:

That's a pretty broad statement, since WE have no way of knowing what they actually said. The translations may be all wrong, all right, or [ more likely] something in between. The determining factor, as could reasonably be expected, is the true fluency of the translator in [ hopefully] both languages, but certainly in the NDN language he was translating. A slight difficulty in English would not necessarily skew the translation beyond understanding or usefulness, but the same level of difficulty in the Lakota or Cheyenne could result in huge credibility gaps.

Look to the translators. If none is named, take that into account when measuring the usefulness of the account. If he/she is named, see if you can find out something about him/her. You might be surprised at how many accounts can be discounted; but I'll warrant that you'd be astounded at how many there are that can't be.

One of the major problems with accounts attributed to NDN witnesses [or descendants thereof] is the "retranslation" done by whoever is using that evidence. You see a lot of that: "Running Wolf said that blah blah blah [as translated by John Elkhorn]; but it is clear that he meant that blah blah blah, which agrees entirely with [or leads to] my theory that blah blah blah....."

Don't be like Graham.

Gordie
MC
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Jan 28, 2008, 2:08pm

To add on once more. I think over and above the translation is the culture. There are several words in Lakota that have no corressponding word in English just as there are English words that have no corresponding Lakota words that we take for granted (Lakota had no written language so for instance anything to do with printed words like books was not easily translated to the Lakota...I say this to help understanding from a non-Lakota perspective).

By the way, Crzhrs, I found the report on the white trader killed fighting with the Lakota...actually John Doerner found it for me. I think you had asked about it a long time ago. It is in the Walter Mason Camp interviews. It is specifically in Sgt M. H. Wilson's interview. This corresponds with the Clown family's oral history of the battle that one of the traders who sold the guns to the Lakota and Cheyenne was in camp the day of the battle. According to their oral history, he fought Reno's group from sharpshooter's ridge and was killed there. He was a friend of Two Bears who also was killed on Reno Hill. According to them, Two Bears is the one that brokered the deal and his death angered the white French trader who they say had red hair and a beard.

~Later
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Jan 28, 2008, 2:19pm

I believe He Dog mentioned the French man also in one of his interviews. Was the "white" man a Metis, a mix-blood from that "tribe"?
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by crzhrs on Jan 28, 2008, 2:23pm

The translations of Indian accounts has been a much discussed topic on the forum.

Much of it probably was not "twisted" to confuse or fool the White Man but as brock stated the cultures were vastly different and for a translater trying to find English words to suit the Whites may have caused confusion as to the intent of the Indian. In addition Indian language is filled with metaphors (including Indian names) which can add even more confusion to non-Indians.

Some of the words we hear often are drunk & suicide which could mean that literally or figuratively.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by harpskiddie on Jan 28, 2008, 3:21pm

brock and crzhrs:

Somewhere on these boards, the name of this man is, I believe, given, along with the circumstances of his death and his burial. I would post this information, except that I might be wrong about it already being "out there" and I would not feel comfortable divulging it, if it isn't, since I do not consider it my information to share.

brock probably has the same story, from the same source, and is a bit circumspect about throwing it out there, and likely for the same reasons that I am. There are, from my viewpoint, still a few details to be cleared up, anyway.

Gordie
MC
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brokensword on Jan 28, 2008, 3:42pm

I agree with brock and crzhrs-

The task of translation VERY often requires some knowledge of the culture and customs by the translator. Some concepts exist in one culture and not in another, obviously.

In the Vietnamese culture, for instance, it is considered 'impolite' to ask someone to repeat something or explain something you didn't understand the first time. So, they take a best guess and let it go at that. Likewise there is no word for 'no' in the entire language. That too is considered 'impolite' and can cause the person it is said to to 'lose face,' or feel himself insulted. So they have um-teen blue-million ways to say 'yes.' Again, it depends on just what they mean.

To compound the problem, it's a tonal language and the same word may have several entirely different meanings, depending on what you are trying to express and how the word is inflected. Many tones are subtle in difference and hard to catch even by native speakers. Frankly, when they REALLY want to understand each other, they often speak French, abandoning their own language completely. Go figure.

There are about half a dozen ways to say the color 'black', and again its depends on what you are describing. A black shirt and black paint are completely different things in their minds. Ask for a 'bucket of paint this color,' pointing to a black shirt, and heaven only knows what you'll find when you open the paint can at home. It was, after all, impolite to ask you what you meant when you asked for paint to begin with.

They aren't stupid people and don't say stupid things. It's usually the non-Vietnamese asking the question and who is ignorant to think he speaks the language after a six week crash course. But, the Vietnamese won't tell him that. They are too polite to tell him so.

M
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Jan 28, 2008, 4:39pm

Harpskiddie and Crzhrs, yes they have told me his name and the circumstances of his death. But I must spell it phonetically as it was given to me orally with no corresponding written material...so please take the spelling with a grain of salt. Jeanne Deelay...he was supposedly French. He and his brother (who married a Lakota but whose name I don't have) operated a trading post up north in the mid-northern part of the Montana/North Dakota border area somewhere. Two Bears was a Dakota headman who had a small village in the northern camps. He and Deelay were friends. When it was learned that the soldiers were coming from the reports of those that had arrived from the agencies, the Lakota determined they needed additional guns. It was too early in the year to have a plethora of buffalo hides to trade. Many miners were killed in the preceeding two year period in the Black Hills and the gold that was in their possession was taken off their bodies and reburied by the Lakota (much of it at the direction of Crazy Horse) where it was deemed the miners would not refind it somewhere northwest of Deadwood. With the knowledge that the soldiers were approaching for what they believed was going to be a fight, desperate times seemed to call for desperate actions. They knew Deelay liked gold and it was remembered where this gold was buried. A party went back and dug it up and presented it to Deelay and his brother. Because it was more gold than the Deelay brothers had rifles and bullets, (and the brothers wanted it all) Jeanne came with the Lakota as personal insurance that the rest of the guns would be delivered. That's why he was at the battle. It is thought the other brother ended up in Canada, but that part is a little hazy. But he had a boatload of gold and somehow the name Deelay or similar spelling and his money should resurface in Canada if indeed he went there but I haven't had the time to research that fact. Also I can't say whether the surviving brother took his wife with him when he left or not. But this in essence is the story that was told to me for my doc. I wonder if there are any sales receipts in the possession of the Winchester rifle company in 1876 to somebody of this name...that might even be a better place to start...after all they got into Cheyenne and Lakota hands somehow from somebody. That's what I can relate for now. Whether this was posted previously, I don't know. And even if it was whether it matches, I don't know that either as it wouldn't have been my post.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Jan 28, 2008, 5:27pm

Brokensword,
Good analogy. The more people that understand that translation isn't just a word for word proposition the further we can advance our understanding. I spent a year in Nam. Didn't get into the culture quite as deeply as yourself. Wish I could have. You're lucky. I spent most of my time dodging bullets and once I zigged when I should have zagged. Ouch! (Actually it was a numbing feeling).
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brokensword on Jan 28, 2008, 7:39pm

Hey brock-

'...zigged when I should have zagged...'

Well, it happens. Thanks for being there Bro.

My experience was probably pretty much like yours from the sound of it. I didn't really get to immerse myself in the culture so much, but I did strike up a friendship with a young Vietnamese Marine.

He was a good hearted fellow and fairly fluent in English. We spent a number of occasions talking, about God, the war, his religion, mine, his people, my people and our two cultures.

M

Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by scout2 on Jan 28, 2008, 8:57pm

" By the way, Crzhrs, I found the report on the white trader killed fighting with the Lakota...actually John Doerner found it for me. I think you had asked about it a long time ago. It is in the Walter Mason Camp interviews. It is specifically in Sgt M. H. Wilson's interview. This corresponds with the Clown family's oral history of the battle that one of the traders who sold the guns to the Lakota and Cheyenne was in camp the day of the battle. According to their oral history, he fought Reno's group from sharpshooter's ridge and was killed there. He was a friend of Two Bears who also was killed on Reno Hill. According to them, Two Bears is the one that brokered the deal and his death angered the white French trader who they say had red hair and a beard."

From the New York Herald, 8-1-76: "Allegations of a Guide's Treachery."

"There is quite a number of white men with the Indians, English having been spoken in their ranks plentifully during the engagements. One of the Indians that was shot by Reno’s men attracted peculiar attention, and upon going up to him he was found masked, and upon removing the mask the features of a white man were disclosed, with a long, gray, patriarchal beard. This individual was seen several times by Gibbon’s command, in charge of small parties of Indians, but they could never get close enough to him to make his acquaintance, so they took him to be an Indian sporting false whiskers for a blind. But when he was pointed out on the field, dead, they recognized him as the same individual. A bugler who was dishonorably in 1869, from the Second infantry, is said to be with them, and it is supposed that he is the one who blew the call on the trumpet."

Remember, I'm your source for all ridiculous stories...I've collected HUNDREDS.

Mick the scout
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Jan 28, 2008, 9:06pm

Same back to you Bro (BrokenSword) and welcome home. I was in the Americal 196 infantry 2/1. It's where I first got introduced to a couple of Lakota. I didn't really appreciate it then and only knew one of them by 'Chief' and the other was Doc Whitebird. Later I read a book "The Dull Knives of Pine Ridge" and found out much to my surprise and excitement that 'Chief' was actually Guy Dull Knife Jr. I visited him for the first time in 2005 and he honored me with an eagle feather and he indeed was the 'Chief' that I had known in Nam. He asked about one of our buds that I had to zip up. Doc Francis Whitebird had set me up with my medical kit as I too was a medic. Seems that the two had been separated because they drank too much when they were together. Went and visited Guy again recently. Since the book came out, he has divorced his wife and married her sister. He said it caused some strained relations with his in-laws. Apparently when his wife's side of the family gets together there are four sisters and he likes to tell the other two sisters that he hasn't married, that they're next on his list.

...sorry Nam flashbacks can go in many directions...I'll try to be better disciplined, after all this is a Crazy Horse thread. ;-)
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Jan 28, 2008, 10:20pm

Scout,
I would agree that the Herald story is bogus and packed with tabloid journalism. If I read your implication correctly and you are saying that the M. H. Wilson interview with Camp is of the same ilk then I have to disagree. At least the sources are named in the Camp papers where the Herald is nothing more than allegations made by the proverbial 'they'. As far as the Clown family oral history, I am working backwards from it and finding the corresponding papers or matches with other oral histories, that will all take time (and my source, unlike the Herald is named there too). The Camp papers are just one small victory. It's not the only one...just the only one I've posted. As far as the rest of the story, it doesn't mean that there's nothing worth sharing presently.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by harpskiddie on Jan 29, 2008, 10:54am

brock, horse et al:

Milden H. Wilson was a sergeant in Company I, 7th Infantry, a part of the Terry/Gibbon column. He received a the MOH in 1878 for actions at the Big Hole fight in 1877 against the Nez Perce. I have not yet seen the Camp interview, which is ostensibly in the Camp Collection at LBHNM. I doubt that it could have much in the way of details about Deeley, although it may contain a mention of his body being found. Without seeing the interview notes, it is simply speculation as to what he said; but it is fairly clear that the 7th Infantry guys were mainly in the valley, and perhaps helped out a bit on Custer field with the burials around SSL and Deep Ravine. Neither would place Wilson close to where Deely was supposedly "buried."

I had hoped to review the Camp Collection again this summer for new materials [additions are frequently made], but that will have to wait [for me, anyway]. Any serious researcher can gain access to the materials by prior arrangement with the NPS staff. John Doerner is, I believe, the Chief Historian at the LBHNM.

Gordie
MC
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Jan 29, 2008, 3:02pm

Here's the interview as sent by John Doerner. In addition a mile west of Curly's original cabin would place the scaffold just west along the western edge of the valley and benchland at Squaw Creek/Squaw Ravine.

"Roe (2nd Lt. Charles Frances Roe, F Company 2nd Cavalry) was with F Troop,
2nd Cavalry. Camped night of June 26 on bend of Little Bighorn where Crow
Agency is now. On June 26 Gibbon's march was on the west side of the
Little Bighorn, all the way from the Buttes east of Big Horn.....kept on
west side all the way up. At the bend (Crow Agency) next morning [they]
kept over to the foothills on the same side of the river. At the first
coulee there were three or four big cottonwoods (about a mile west of
Curley's ranch) [where they] found a white man with a long beard buried in
a tree. Wilson helped take him down. He was dressed as an Indian and was
evidently fighting with them and killed on Reno Hill [Sharp Shooter Ridge]
where he had been seen by soldiers. Was shot in five or six places. Mr.
Willie, operator at Deer Lodge, has the braclets [taken] off this man's
hand." Interview with Sergeant M.H. Wilson, 7th Infantry [no date] Camp,
Custer, And The Little Bighorn: A Collection of Walter Mason Camp's
Research Papers on General George A. Custer's Last Fight"

I'd be curious to know if Mr Willie over at Deer Lodge has any surviving relatives.

~Later
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by scout2 on Jan 29, 2008, 3:30pm

Brock, no I don't believe it at all. I live by the research rule that if something sounds to fantastic and illogical to be true it probably ain't. Dr. Graham believed a man named Frank Hutson was in the Indian camp at the time of the battle. He wasn't. Remember, Camp got fed a lot of BS by a lot of people. Heck, I even found one such story where Jesse James was in the Indian camp and handed out Winchesters to the Indians. It was attributed to a Negro named Frank Curtis in El Paso, Colorado in 1959. Gotta love it.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by harpskiddie on Jan 29, 2008, 3:44pm

brock:

Thanks for the citation. It turns out that I already had it, but didn't know it. What you posted is a small excerpt of the total interview.

As opposed to Scout, I believe that Deely was there, but as my correspondent knows, there is some difficulty with the details of where and when he fought and died. I had always understood that he was placed on a scaffold "behind SSR" [which could mean almost anything], which is why the description given by Wilson did not make a deep impression on me. Quite frankly, although I know where I got the bulk of the information, I can't remember where I got the idea of his "burial" place. And maybe the long beard got me, too.

I've never seen, that I can recall, any mention by soldiers who were there of a man with a long beard fighting from SSR [which is a considerable distance from the Reno intrenchments].

Gordie
MC
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Jan 29, 2008, 4:01pm

Harpskiddie,
What have you found that makes you say his beard was white? What John sent me doesn't mention the color.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by harpskiddie on Jan 29, 2008, 4:31pm

brock:

A slip of the tongue, I'm afraid, and I apologize. I've corrected the above post. As a matter of interest, the original notes do not mention Sharpshooters Ridge, just Reno Hill.

Gordie
MC
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Jan 29, 2008, 6:11pm

Just a general question. In Montana at around the 1900s when someone was called an 'operator' did that normally mean he ran a mining operation? Anyone with Montana roots care to field that?
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by shan on Feb 2, 2008, 10:13am

Does anyone know if Crazy Horse had a brother that our lived him, and if so, has anyone ever heard if he was photographed or not?

I know that many years before he came to the attention of the whites, he had a brother that was killed by the Crows or Shoshones, a brother he was so fond of that he set out alone to avenge him, but I was wondering if there was yet another brother. Should there be an actual photograph of him, then we might some insight as to how Crazy Horse himself looked.
Shan
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by scout2 on Feb 2, 2008, 3:13pm

I think that Deeley/dead man up the tree story was nothing more than an old wives tale. If such a body was found the chances are pretty good he was killed by the Indians who might have thought he led the troops there. In the long run there is no evidence that it happened. Strictly gossip. Good point on Crazy Horse shan, there would have been some resemblance I would guess.
Re: Crazy Horse Genealogy
Post by brock on Feb 2, 2008, 9:52pm

Shan,
Yes there is a photo according to the Clown family of a half-brother, Wolf, that resides in one of the family descendants cedar chest. I have that photo and showed it briefly in one of the documentaries but I can't post it as it belongs to the family and is not in public domain. Also there is a a drawing in the book "Custer's Conqueror" by William Bourdeau that you could find in Beinecke's Rare Books and Manuscripts that was drawn from a description by Louis Boudreau and Julia Iron Cedar (Clown). Also once again in the docs there is a drawing by an unknown artist at the behest of Julia Iron Cedar that belongs again to the family that they say is accurate. Right now the only online would be at Beinecke (Yale University) site.

Scout,
I think most everyone accepts the fact that you don't believe this story after stating so the first time on this thread. But if you really want to contribute in a constructive way then I think supplying hard evidence that it did NOT happen would be in order.