Re: Ft. Phil Kearney « Reply #211 on Dec 21, 2010, 4:06pm »
Horse, re. Fetterman MIA, to my knowledge there was never any discrepancies those who went out & the bodies returned. There was severe enough mutilations that, to paraphrase a soldier's comment, some men where buried with another man's guts. It's now 1400 MST..by my guess this is about the time the climax to the battle was reached, or the fight ended.
Re: Ft. Phil Kearney « Reply #215 on Dec 23, 2010, 8:31pm »
Horse,
I do not know why there has been this uncertainty over the years or the confusion. As late a book as Gray's Custer's Last Campaign reflects just such confusion. Did they not have access to the returns?
I have checked every source imaginable-- at least in my imagination. I went through the regimental and company returns from April 1876 through August 1876 and was able to account for every name. Stuff that Billy Markland sent me helped, as well.
The tally for Custer was 210... though I will admit, I was disappointed. I had been using 212 for years. The total for the battle was 268, including civilians and scouts. Of those 268, a total of 263 were considered to be outright KIAs, while the remaining 5 were DOWs, including one, I believe (I would have to check my notes), who died fairly quickly... like late 26th or early 27th. One DOW lingered on until October I think (again, if you want, I will go through my notes and give you the precise names, dates, and burial grounds).
And yes, there were missing: Sturgis, Harrington, Porter, amongst the officers. They are carried as KIA and are part of that 268. Unless there is some long-lost information out there that was never carried in the returns, 268 is absolutely definitive. Even the 607 uniformed men who were there is pretty much unimpeachable.
You can add to that some 48 scouts, civilians, and QM types, for a total of 655. I have worked, hashed out, and re-hashed that numbers for years and I think it is pretty accurate. I would put it up against anything. A discrepancy might mean you would be carrying a messenger differently, but that's about it.
Re: Ft. Phil Kearney « Reply #216 on Dec 24, 2010, 6:07pm »
Fred,
If I recall correctly, we first started corresponding when I was trying to reconcile the Indian WIA/KIA with those listed on the Indian Memorial at the battlefield. I gave up that project long ago out of sheer frustration but am still curious. Were you able to determine definitive numbers for the Indian WIA/KIA and reconcile them with the Indian Memorial?
Re: Ft. Phil Kearney « Reply #217 on Dec 24, 2010, 8:19pm »
Diane, I'm in Vermont for Christmas and didn't bring my computer, so this needs to be brief... BlackBerry Pearl. We sold our home in Florida and moved back to NY. As for the Indian casualties, I never checked the memorial for names; can't be sure of the sources with all the damn politics. The work I've done lists at least 63 dead, plus Gall's family (whose names always seem to be unavailable...makes you wonder, doesn't it?). If you want the names I'll e-mail them to you after I get home. By the way, you are in there, too. Best wishes, Fred.
Steve Andrews-- if you read this, Merry Christmas, friend!
Re: Ft. Phil Kearney « Reply #218 on Dec 24, 2010, 8:19pm »
Diane, I'm in Vermont for Christmas and didn't bring my computer, so this needs to be brief... BlackBerry Pearl. We sold our home in Florida and moved back to NY. As for the Indian casualties, I never checked the memorial for names; can't be sure of the sources with all the damn politics. The work I've done lists at least 63 dead, plus Gall's family (whose names always seem to be unavailable...makes you wonder, doesn't it?). If you want the names I'll e-mail them to you after I get home. By the way, you are in there, too. Best wishes, Fred.
Steve Andrews-- if you read this, Merry Christmas, friend!
Re: Ft. Phil Kearney « Reply #219 on Dec 27, 2010, 12:56pm »
How's the weather in VT?
Here in NH we just went through a "blizzard" on Dec. 26-27. Well, there are blizzards then there are blizzards. We got about 10+" of snow with ferocious winds causing drifting and white outs.
Other than that it was a Merry Xmas . . . even got to stay home because of the weather.
The ol' snowblower came in really handy, but still had to do some "hand shoveling"
Oh, by the way, the Patriots are 13-2, have a bye for the first play-off game and home field advantage throughout the play-offs.
This time the Super Bowl will be in the Patriots' trophy case.
Re: Ft. Phil Kearney « Reply #220 on Dec 28, 2010, 12:29pm »
Fred, I've obviously been out of touch. I hope you and Lisa are happy in NY. I've got the BB Pearl also and am being pestered by Verizon to upgrade, but I don't need 50,000 applications.
Perhaps I'll pick up the Indian Memorial project again. If anyone has reconciled the names, please be kind, let me know, and save me countless hours of frustration.
Crazy -- Oh, no! Not the Pats!
If you haven't seen it yet, you and other Pats fans will love the "Bighorn" movie. It's only 15.5 minutes.
Re: Ft. Phil Kearney « Reply #221 on Dec 28, 2010, 4:55pm »
Horse,
The weather in Vermont was fine. We pulled in around 3 PM Christmas Eve, had dinner at the inn, and a relaxing day on Christmas. There is a small ski lodge a mile from the Inn-- Bolton Valley Ski, I guess it's called-- and we wandered around there for a bit. Back to the inn, played some games, ate, and left Sunday morning: 6 degrees was as low as I saw it. Easy, relaxing, good food: wife, mother- and brother-in-law; niece and nephew. No new snow until the trip back. The inn was probably no more than 20 minutes outside of Burlington.
Diane,
I remember your project, but not recall the specifics. If you need data, I have it. Do you have the list of dead Indians from the memorial? I could compare it to what I have and see how many discrepancies we come up with.
The "one" thing I have never been able to scrounge up is the names of Gall's wives and children supposedly killed by the Arikara... who, of course, denied ever doing such a thing. I wonder if they are listed on the memorial.
Re: Ft. Phil Kearney « Reply #222 on Dec 29, 2010, 10:52am »
Fred, you are a brave man! Here you go . . . .
The following lists are from the booklet distributed at the Indian Memorial Dedication on June 25, 2003. I will look for my photos of the Memorial to make sure these lists are correct.
Sioux - alpha order (not including titles/ranks) Bad Light Hair Bear With Horns War Leader Chief Black Moon Black Wasichu Chased by Owls Cloud Man Deed Dog With Horns (listed twice) Dog's Backbone Eagle Hat Elk Bear Chief Elk Standing High Elks Stands On Top Flying Charge Guts Hawk Man Chief High Eagle High Eagle (different man?) High Horse Kills Him Long Dog Long Road Plenty Lice Red Face Swift Bear Three Bears Two Bear White Buffalo Bull White Bull White Eagle Young Bear War Leader Young Black Moon Young Skunk
Cheyenne Black Bear Black Cloud Black Coyote Black Fox Closed Hand Cut Belly Flying By Full Beard Hair Lip Hump Nose Lame White Man Left Hand Limber Bones Little Whirlwind Noisy Walking Old Man Owns Red Horse Roman Nose Swift Cloud Young Bear
Arapaho Left Hand Waterman Well Knowing One Yellow Eagle Yellow Fly
U.S. Arikara Scouts Bear Bear Comes Out Bear Running In Timber Black Calf Black Fox Bloody Knife Sergeant Bobtailed Bull Boy Chief Bull Bull in Water Bull in the Water (same man?) Bush Curly Head Foolish Bear Forked Horn Good Face Goose Little Brave Little Sioux Lying Down One Feather Red Star Soldier Stab Strikes the Lodge Strikes Two White Cloud White Eagle William Baker Young Hawk
U.S. Crow Scouts Curly Goes Ahead Hairy Moccasin Corporal Half Yellow Face White Man Runs Him White Swan (wounded)
Regarding Gall's family, the Sioux panel on the Memorial has a note that may refer to them: "We also remember those unknown Sioux men, women, and children who died in the battle."
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