Post by fred on Jan 6, 2011 8:38:52 GMT -6
I feel like a gypsy, wandering from board to board, but with the smell arising from the stupidity elsewhere, it may be best to try to add a little zest over here and to see if I may contribute a bit. Rather than wade back and forth, I decided to post this here as well.
It may also add to the short discussion Darkcloud and I have had about Martini and Boston Custer, though I am not sure where these "profiles" belong. Maybe Diane could move them to where she thinks it best. They probably belong together.
Also, as you can see below, I have many others, though some are quite small. If there are any some of you want to see and they can add to our discussions, please let me know.
Over the years I have built a series of profiles on people involved in one way or another with the Little Big Horn. Generally these are "source" pieces, in other words, paraphrased or directly quoted from what the individual actually said. In all, I have 169 of them, varying in length from a single page to more than 30 pages. Currently they total 589 pages, in varying stages of completion. Not all are of actual participants; there is a short one on Walter Camp, for instance, but only in so far as it pertains to a specific incident from the battle.
These notes are from Indians, scouts, soldiers... some of whom merely knew the participants. As I said, a few are incomplete... and I am willing to change any and all of them if I stumble across new material.
A couple of words of explanation are needed. Everything is done chronologically. Page numbers from the above reference are in brackets [ ]. Anything else in brackets-- and italics-- is my own personal comments, notes I made of notes I took. Anything in yellow is a direct quote, either from the source above or the individual who said it.
I hope these notes can help someone out there.
TMP PVT GIOVANNI MARTINI (JOHN MARTIN) (H/HQ)
1879—RCOI, Friday, 31Jan1879.
From the divide to the flats, then on to and beyond Reno Hill—
1. Major Reno moved to the left and Custer “took to the right” near the tepee. [387]
2. Custer did not go near the LBH, but watered his command for about 5 minutes at a little creek. [388]
• The halt was for a total of about 10 minutes. [388]
• There appeared to be a lodge pole trail there. [397]
3. The command then moved in a straight line for about 300 yards. [388]
4. They followed the lodge pole trail. They moved very fast. [397]
5. Custer then moved a little to the right, going another 400 or 500 yards. [388]
6. There was “a kind of big bend on the hill. He turned these hills and went on top of the ridge. All at once we looked on the bottom and saw the Indian village… We could see only children and dogs and ponies around the village. No Indians at all.” [388] [This could very well fit in with DeRudio’s testimony that he saw Custer, not on Weir Peak, but some 600 yards downriver from Reno’s entrenchment area.]
• Martini judged this to be around 12 o’clock noon. [394]
• He said there was no dust; he reiterated they “could see the dogs and children around the tepees.” [395]
• Custer said, “Courage boys, we have got them. The Indians are asleep in their tepees.” [395]
7. They could see nothing of Reno’s column as they went down river across the hills. [388] [They were probably back off the ridgeline far enough so they could not see the near side—the river side—of the valley.]
8. Martini rode within about two yards of Custer, to his rear and left. [389]
9. The Gray Horse Company was in the center of the column. [389]
10. They could see the river when they were on top of the ridge. [389]
11. They heard no firing as they went down a ravine. [389]
12. They always moved at a gallop. [389]
13. [Here is where Martini’s testimony starts getting fouled up.] When asked how far—distance—they had traveled from where they had watered to where they looked down to see the village, he replied, “… about an hour and a half after we left the watering place till we got to that place.” [He could not have been talking about the morass.] [389] [Elisabeth Kimber brought out the point that, “Graham interprets the ‘hour and a half’ to be either a slip of the tongue, or a mistake in the written record; he thinks what was meant was ‘a mile and a half’. That would make much more sense, I think ... In which case the watering place he's referring to is presumably North Fork?”]
14. [This is now very interesting.] “We went more to the right from that ridge and went down to a ravine that went to the river. At the same time General Custer passed that high place on the ridge or a little below it he told his adjutant to send an order back to Captain Benteen.” [390] [Notice that Martini did not say Custer went up to “that high place.” I will make the assumption “that high place” is Weir Peak.]
15. Martini then states the command “went more to the right from that ridge and went down to a ravine that went to the river.” As Custer went past “that high place on the ridge,” he told the adjutant to send a message back to Benteen. [390] [The assumption now is that the “high place on the ridge” is Weir Peaks and the ravine is Cedar Coulee. Martini would not have known that Cedar Coulee would not go to the river, but would empty into MTC. Furthermore, Martini would probably have understood Custer to say something like, we’ll take this ravine to the river.]
• According to Martini’s testimony, this “high place” is now Weir Peaks. He was asked if Custer went there and he said no, only the Indian scouts did. [398]
• It looks like Martini was given the note right near the head of Cedar Coulee. [395]
• [The head of Cedar Coulee is close to ½ mile upstream—before—from Weir Peaks and loaf. The coulee head would be reached well before the command reached Weir Point.] Martini said it was the highest point and it was 500 yards from the head of the coulee. [397] [The place where DeRudio saw Custer was almost exactly 500 yards upstream from the head of the coulee, but Weir was farther away—and downstream—than 500 yards.]
• [The topo map shows a high point—3,411 feet—just downstream from Reno Hill and about 3/10 of a mile—500 yards—upstream from the head of Cedar Coulee. This high point is only 2 feet less than Weir Peaks (3,413 feet). The topo map shows Weir to be close to ½ mile downstream from the head of Cedar Coulee.]
• Custer’s column was galloping which ties in with DeRudio’s timing scenario. [395]
16. Martini was asked who Custer was with “on the hill.” This was after he was asked about “that high point,” probably referring to Weir Peaks. Martini’s response to the question was Custer was riding with his brother [Tom] and his nephew. [398] [Again, there is confusion in Martini’s testimony and I believe it has to do with the way the questions were worded. The “high point” refers to Weir, but Martini heard “the hill” and that was where the command was riding, i. e., up to Reno Hill.]
The Note and the Ride to Benteen—
17. Martini was given a note and instructed to bring it to Benteen. He was also told to come back to the Custer command if there was no danger otherwise he was to stay with his company. [390]
18. Cooke told Martini to follow the same trail they had come on and to hurry. [390 and 391]
• Martini was with Cooke for no more than 10 minutes. [395]
• The river could not be seen from here, Martini said. [398]
19. Martini said Custer did not stop; Cooke stopped to write the message. [391]
20. Martini rode back some 500 or 600 yards—maybe 3/4 of a mile—and went on the same ridge where Custer had seen the village. [It is hardly believable Martini would have ridden up to Weir Peaks.] He looked into the bottom—but he did not stop—and saw Reno’s command engaged. [390]
• Q: “Was his line deployed in skirmish form?”
A: “Yes, sir.” [395]
• Martini did not see Reno in the timber. [396]
• Martini saw no dust in the village. [397]
21. About 300 to 400 yards above the creek where Custer had stopped to water his horses [North Fork], Martini met Benteen. [390]
• Benteen was on the march, not halted. [392]
• Once given the message, Benteen “went a little livelier.” [392]
• They met below the tepee, closer to the LBH. They were not within sight of the tepee. [398]
22. Martini gave the message to Benteen, who read it and put it in his pocket. Benteen told Martini to go back to CPT McDougall, “to bring up the pack train and keep it well up.” [390]
• Benteen denied sending Martini back to McDougall. Benteen testified that if Martini went to the packs he did so of his own accord. See p. 433. This is reasonable and makes sense.
• See Martini’s statement to W. A. Graham for Graham’s article in “The Cavalry Journal,” given just before Martini died in 1922. Martini agreed with Benteen, saying he was misunderstood at the RCOI because of his poor English. Martini admitted then that Benteen never gave him any order for McDougall. [Graham, The Custer Myth, p. 291]
23. “Captain Benteen asked me where General Custer was. I said I supposed that by that time he had made a charge through the village and that was all I said.” [390]
24. Martini said nothing about Reno. Benteen did not ask. [391]
25. Martini thought it took him about 3/4 of an hour to reach Benteen. [391]
• He thought he reached Benteen some 15 or 20 minutes after seeing Reno fighting in the valley. [391]
• Martini thought he traveled about 2 miles in reaching Benteen. [396]
• More confusion: Q: “How long did it take you to go from General Custer to Captain Benteen…?”
A: “I can’t tell. I judge I went 5 miles.” [396] … An hour to 1 1/2 hours. [396] [Martini was clearly confused and must have been referring to his round-trip.]
26. Martini claimed he found McDougall only 150 yards behind the Benteen column’s rear, at the front of his command. Martini thought the packs “were pretty well together.” [391 and 396]
• The packs were moving at all speeds: walking, running, trotting. [392]
27. Martini told McDougall to hurry and to keep the packs closed. McDougall did so. [392]
28. Martini then went back to H Company and rode on the left of it. [392]
29. They followed Custer’s trail. [392]
• Martini said they got on the ridge where he had seen Reno fighting [the same spot?] and saw Reno’s command retreating to the same side of the river they were on. [392]
• This was clarified a little when Martini was asked by Lyman Gilbert to look at the map and try to identify where Martini saw the village. Martini replied, “It was on a line leading from Major Reno’s position to the point ‘7’ [‘7’ was the point DeRudio put on the map as being the spot where he saw Custer, Cooke, and an unidentified person: could be Martini] as I understand the map, because when I came back a little bit beyond our position on the hill I saw Major Reno’s column fighting.” [394]
• When asked to pinpoint the distance between where Martini was given the note and Reno’s hilltop position, Martini said he “could not judge.” He then gave the same distance of “500 or 600 yards… 3/4 of a mile,” as he gave earlier when asked where he saw Reno fighting on his trip back to Benteen. [395]
On Reno Hill—
30. Reno’s men were retreating when Benteen arrived on the hilltop. [396]
• Martini judged it took about 45 minutes after meeting Benteen to when they reached Reno on the hilltop. [396]
31. It took the packs 10 to 15 minutes to come up. Everything was up in 15 minutes. [392] [Martini’s timing seems off here.]
The Move to Weir Peaks—
32. Martini then said they waited for some men from the bottom and for some packs to come up and then moved downstream. He thought it was about 1 1/2 hours after the packs had arrived before they moved. [392]
33. Martini claimed Weir moved with the command: “It went with the battalion when we went downstream.” [393] [Martini is obviously wrong here. That makes a lot of little things rather suspect.]
34. By the time he got to the head of the ravine, Weir’s company had moved a little to the right, and then started back. [393]
35. When he reached the head of the ravine, Martini could see Indians. They turned around and started back. [393]
After Weir Peaks—
36. The following exchange is unclear: Q: “Did you come near the place where you first saw Major Reno?”
A: “No, sir. It was a little further down the stream.” [393] [What was farther down? The place where they came to or where Martini first saw Reno? See above.]
• He later clarified this by saying it was about the same place. That still ties in with DeRudio’s testimony. [395]
The 26th—
37. Martini was then trumpeter for Reno’s battalion. [394]
1908 and 1910—Walter Camp Interviews Conducted: 24Oct1908 and 4May1910.
1. Martini said Custer’s only orderlies on the 25th were himself, Dose of G Company, and a Bishop of C Company. He was certain of it, but he is incorrect and Camp picks it up. [99] [This alone should be reason to begin questioning some of Martini’s accounts.]
2. Martini did not see any Indians on the bluffs (when Custer separated from Reno). [100]
3. Before Custer reached the high ridge, he marched in a column of twos with E Company in the middle. [100] [This means he changed formations once the terrain dictated such a change.]
4. Claims Custer never left his command to wave his hat and when he was on the high point, his whole command was with him, sitting on their horses. “As soon as the command left this high point everybody passed out of sight from Reno’s position and went down the hollow toward Dry Creek.” [100, FN 3] [Martini doesn’t remember seeing Boyer or the Crows at this time.]
5. Martini’s route description agreed exactly with Curley and Kanipe [Camp]. [100]
6. “Then Custer halted command on the high ridge about 10 minutes, and officers looked at village through glasses. Saw children and dogs playing among the tepees but no warriors or horses except few loose ponies grazing around. There was then a discussion among the officers as to where the warriors might be and someone suggested that they might be buffalo hunting…” [100]
• In the later interview, Martini said Custer halted on Weir hill, but could only see about 1/3 of the village.
• “Martini says whole column passed over the high ridge from which they could plainly see village and children and dogs in it. Martini says he was with Custer after he passed the high ground and left him just as the command started down a ravine to get off the bluff, somewhat to the right of highest ground and about 1,000 feet from it.” [103, FN 2]
7. Custer now made a speech saying they would go down, make a crossing, and capture the village. The whole command cheered. The consensus among the officers was that if this could be done, the Indians would surrender rather than fire on their own people. [100]
8. Commands were given: “Attention.” “Fours right.” “Column right.” “March.” The command went down off the hill and then “Column left,” and the command passed down a ravine toward the dry creek (MTC). Claimed Custer followed the coulee all the way (Cedar?), not cutting across “the hill.” [100; and FN 4, 100]
9. Column went about 1/2 mile when Cooke gave Martini the message for Benteen. Instructed to come back if he saw no danger. [100]
a. Martini then claimed about half way down the Dry Creek they came into full view of the village. [103] [Martini is completely confused here. Earlier, he had stated when he started out with the message they had not yet seen the village.]
b. After he had left with the message, he traveled, “500 or 600 yards or perhaps 3/4 mile, ‘I got on same ridge from which Genl. Custer saw the village the first time and on looking down on the bottom I saw Major Reno and his command engaged already…’ Thinks that from the time he saw Reno he was 15 or 20 minutes getting up to Benteen.” [103, FN 5]
c. Thought he left Custer some two miles north of Reno Hill.
d. In the second interview Martini says he cut across the high ground, not taking MTC to the north – south coulee (Cedar?). [103 – 104]
10. Martini started back on the trail and before he got to the hill where the command had halted, he heard heavy firing off to his right. Was not sure if it was Custer or Reno, but later supposed it was at Ford B. [101]
11. In the second interview Martini said when he got to the high ground he looked back and saw Custer’s command over on the flat, appearing to be falling back. [104]
12. Met Boston Custer. Boston pointed out to him that Martini’s horse had been hit. [104]
a. Half – way between “medium coulee and Weir Hill.” [104, FN 7]
b. “Soon after… met the two men.” [104, FN 7] [These had to be two stragglers.]
c. After this is when he heard a volley then looked back to see Custer “retreating.” [104, FN 7]
13. Then, again in the second interview, he says he, “kept on up the north and south coulee and soon met a mounted man whom I recognized as one of C troop… After this I met Boston Custer…” [104] [Camp claims this was when Martini was on the bluffs. “This is another good proof that Custer hesitated and stopped some considerable time after he came in sight of village.” [104, FN 8]]
14. When he got to top of ridge he looked into the village and saw Indians swarming toward the ford. [101]
15. At the same time, he said he saw Custer, “retreating up the open country in the direction of the battlefield.” [101] [This could be a serious timing issue here. How long would it have taken Martini to reach this point versus him being able to see Custer “retreating” into the open country toward the battlefield?]
16. Claims Benteen asked him if Custer was being attacked and he replied, yes.
17. Denies ever having said the Indians were “skedaddling.” [101]
18. At one time, Martini says packs reached Reno Hill 10 – 15 minutes behind Benteen. In another instance, he said three hours. [104, FN 9]
19. Did not see Reno or Indians or any fighting.
20. After beginning to mount bluffs with Benteen, they met three Crows who pointed out Reno’s men were retreating across the LBH. [104]
21. Claimed to have seen four Crows with Reno for the two days on the hilltop.
22. 1SG Butler’s horse was killed with him. [102]
23. He saw the “heap” of dead in the gully between Custer and the river. [102]
24. Not half as many dead horses as men. [102]
25. Benteen secured Keogh’s Agnus Dei emblem from around his neck. [102]
26. Martini showed Benteen where Cooke had given him the note and Benteen estimated it was some 600 yards from Ford B. [105]
27. Martini saw the body of a white man in the village. [105]
1922—Graham, W. A., COL, The Custer Myth. Stackpole Books, Mechanicsburg, PA: 1953 (2000). From an article written by Graham and published in the July 1923, edition of The Cavalry Journal. Graham does not say when Martini told this story, but it certainly seems like it was some time in 1922. Martini died shortly thereafter, on Christmas Eve, 1922.
NOTE—This commentary is vastly different from the testimony Martini gave at the RCOI and even differs from what he told Walter Camp.
1. Shortly before 8 AM on June 25, Benteen told Martini to report to General Custer for orderly trumpeter duty. This was “several” miles from the divide, obviously at Halt 1. [288] [Three miles from the divide.]
2. When Martini reported to Custer, the general was speaking to Bloody Knife and merely acknowledged Martini with a nod of the head. [289]
3. Custer was dressed “in a blue-gray flannel shirt, buckskin trousers, and long boots. He wore a regular company hat. His yellow hair was cut short—not very short; but it was not long and curly on his shoulders like it used to be.” [289]
4. Shortly, Custer jumped on his horse—bareback—and rode around the camp talking in low tones to his officers. [289]
5. Martini said the command was ready by 8:30 AM and the scouts went on ahead, the troops following about 15 minutes later. He said they moved slowly and Martini rode about two yards behind Custer. [289] [I find this incredible. It is hard to believe Custer would slowly mosey along after getting reports that the village had been spotted. What sense does that make?]
6. Martini then says this march lasted about 2 hours and they halted in a deep ravine. [289] [That means the command took 2 hours to go approximately 3 miles! This is sheer nonsense.]
7. Custer now went to the Crow’s Nest and according to Martini, “was gone a long time.” [289] [I am more inclined to believe this “long time” than the business about taking two hours to march three miles.]
8. When Custer returned “they” told him about finding fresh pony tracks nearby and that the Sioux had spotted the command in the ravine. Custer ordered Martini to sound officers’ call. [289]
9. None of the men were allowed near the officers and shortly they were on the march again, crossing the divide about noon. [289] [In his RCOI testimony, Martini stated they viewed the village from the bluffs around noon. Too many contradictions here.]
10. As they moved down the Reno Creek valley—Martini does not indicate any speed—scouts were moving in and out and Custer would gallop ahead to look around. [289]
11. They came to a tepee with a dead Indian in it. The scouts fired the lodge. [289]
12. “Just a little off from that there was a little hill, from which Gerard, one of the scouts, saw some Indians between us and the river. He called to the general and pointed them out. He said they were running away.” [289]
13. Reno had already been summoned to come across the creek and was riding up. Custer told Cooke to give Reno the order to attack the village. “[Custer] would support him with the whole regiment. He said he would go down to the other end and drive them, and that he would have Benteen hurry up and attack them in the center.” [289] [This is not unreasonable and it is just about where Custer would have finalized his plans for the attack. The problem I have with it is that Custer failed to tell Reno what “support” meant and Martini, some 46 years after the fact, suddenly remembers Custer’s precise plans. I wonder if this is merely the power of suggestion and rationalization at work.]
14. Reno moved out at a trot while Custer followed for a few hundred yards, then swung to the right. [289]
15. “We went at a gallop, too. (Just stopped once to water the horses.) The General seemed to be in a big hurry.” [289] [Now suddenly, Custer is in a big hurry. What has changed? Gerard’s comment about the Indians running? If this is true now, why wouldn’t it have been so when Custer first got the report—at Halt 1—of a big village?]
16. “After we had gone about a mile or two we came to a big hill that overlooked the valley, and we rode around the base of it and halted.” [289] [This certainly sounds like Sharpshooters’ Ridge, but he does not say which side they rode around.]
17. Now suddenly Custer takes Martini and views the valley from “the top of the hill.” [289] [Again, unless Martini is referring to “3411” as his hill, this flies in the face of his RCOI testimony.]
18. Martini said they could not see the entire village from the top of the hill, though “several hundred tepees were in plain sight.” [289 – 290]
19. Martini now states they saw nothing of Reno’s column from the top of the hill. All they could see were “some squaws and children playing and a few dogs and ponies. The General seemed both surprised and glad, and said the Indians must be sleeping.” Martini was sure Custer couldn’t see Reno, even though he was peering through field glasses. [290] [This is almost preposterous.]
20. Custer now turned in his saddle, took off his hat and waved it to his men—“halted at the base of the hill”—and shouted, “Hurrah, boys, we’ve got them! We’ll finish them up and then go home to our station.” [290] [It is interesting how Custer could merely turn in his saddle and be in view of his command without moving toward the crest of the hilltop.]
21. From here, Custer rode down to his troops, spoke briefly with LT Cooke, then the entire command rode very rapidly until they came “to a big ravine that led in the direction of the river…” This was about one mile from where they viewed the village and about three miles from where they left Reno. [290]
22. Custer now called Martini and told him—directly—that he wanted him to ride back to Benteen and tell him of the big village and to hurry and bring the ammunition packs. Cooke told Martini to hold it for a moment while he wrote out a note. The column never stopped during this time. [290] [Again, completely different from Martini’s RCOI testimony. This has become a “pick-and-choose” option for various writers; whatever suits their agenda seems to be the “testimony” they like to quote.]
23. In what is a very revealing comment, Martini now says, “The Adjutant had told me to follow our trail back, and so in a few minutes I was back on the same hill again where the General and I had looked at the village…” [290] [Why would Martini go back onto “the hill” if the hill was either Weir Peak or Sharpshooters’ Ridge? The command’s “trail” would not have gone on either point, but around the base of SSR—or so Martini said—or into Cedar Coulee if Custer had gone to Weir. Weir Peaks is obviously out of the question because if they had viewed the village from there, Custer would have been able to see the whole thing. The only place where any of this makes sense is the edge of the bluffs, exactly where DeRudio said he saw Custer and two others and where it seems Martini was alluding to in his RCOI testimony.]
24. Martini said that just before he got to “the hill,” he met Boston Custer riding at a run. Boston asked him where the general was. [290]
25. When Martini reached the top of the hill he looked down and saw Reno in action. He claimed it had been no more than 10 or 15 minutes since he was on the hill with Custer and now he saw lots of Indians and Reno on a skirmish line. He said he did not stop to watch, yet he saw the line falling back. [290]
26. Martini followed the trail all the way back to where Custer watered the horses. He was moving “at a jog trot…” [290]
27. Finally, he saw Benteen a few hundred yards away. Benteen “was riding quite a distance in front of [his] troops, with his orderly trumpeter, at a fast trot.” The nearest officer was CPT Weir, 200 or 300 yards behind Benteen. [290]
28. Martini gave Benteen the note and Benteen asked him where Custer was. Martini replied that the Indians they saw were running and he supposed the general had charged through the village by now. [290]
29. Martini now tried to clarify something from the RCOI. He made a point of saying Benteen never told him to go back and give any order to CPT McDougall and the packs. He said that at the RCOI he did not speak English very well and his testimony was misunderstood. [291] [See RCOI, p. 390.]
30. Martini’s horse had been wounded—Benteen pointed it out to him—and he was given another horse, rejoining his company. He spotted the pack train, maybe a mile back, but Benteen moved out quickly and Martini soon lost sight of the packs. [291]
31. [Martini now seems to confuse his statements again:] “We followed General Custer’s trail until we got near the ridge where the General and I had first seen the village.” [291] [How can this be? Even if it was Sharpshooter’s Ridge, that is well beyond where Reno reached the top of the bluffs. Martini is obviously perplexed when it comes to where and who looked into the valley.]
32. He goes on to say they could see Reno’s fight in the valley and his men retreating. [291]
33. When they arrived at the hilltop, they met Reno who pleaded with Benteen for help. Benteen asked where Custer was, but Reno did not know other than he went downstream. [291]
34. “We heard a lot of firing down the river; it kept up for a half hour or maybe more. It sounded like a big fight was going on, and the men thought it was General Custer, and that he was whipping the Indians, and we all wanted to hurry on and join him, but they wouldn’t let us go. Captain Weir had some words with Colonel Reno, and I could tell by the way he was acting that he was excited and angry.” [291] [More fairy tales! “We all wanted to hurry…”? Weir had words with Reno? Not according to others who were there. Sounds a little too much like the “Me, me” syndrome again.]
35. They heard some volleys and Weir jumped on his horse and headed downriver, followed by his company. [291] [Is this a timing issue here? Volleys, then Weir’s move?]
36. The ammunition mules arrived in about 15 minutes [from the time Benteen arrived on the hilltop?], but it was more than an hour before the last of the pack mules arrived. [291]
37. They moved downriver to join Weir’s command, but the Indians began coming up “by the thousand.” They thought the Indians had held off Custer and that he had headed downriver to join Terry. No one thought his command had been wiped out. [291]
38. The fight the following morning started just before daylight and kept up until the middle of the afternoon. [291]
That's it. I hope this is useful to someone.
Best wishes,
Fred.
It may also add to the short discussion Darkcloud and I have had about Martini and Boston Custer, though I am not sure where these "profiles" belong. Maybe Diane could move them to where she thinks it best. They probably belong together.
Also, as you can see below, I have many others, though some are quite small. If there are any some of you want to see and they can add to our discussions, please let me know.
Over the years I have built a series of profiles on people involved in one way or another with the Little Big Horn. Generally these are "source" pieces, in other words, paraphrased or directly quoted from what the individual actually said. In all, I have 169 of them, varying in length from a single page to more than 30 pages. Currently they total 589 pages, in varying stages of completion. Not all are of actual participants; there is a short one on Walter Camp, for instance, but only in so far as it pertains to a specific incident from the battle.
These notes are from Indians, scouts, soldiers... some of whom merely knew the participants. As I said, a few are incomplete... and I am willing to change any and all of them if I stumble across new material.
A couple of words of explanation are needed. Everything is done chronologically. Page numbers from the above reference are in brackets [ ]. Anything else in brackets-- and italics-- is my own personal comments, notes I made of notes I took. Anything in yellow is a direct quote, either from the source above or the individual who said it.
I hope these notes can help someone out there.
TMP PVT GIOVANNI MARTINI (JOHN MARTIN) (H/HQ)
1879—RCOI, Friday, 31Jan1879.
From the divide to the flats, then on to and beyond Reno Hill—
1. Major Reno moved to the left and Custer “took to the right” near the tepee. [387]
2. Custer did not go near the LBH, but watered his command for about 5 minutes at a little creek. [388]
• The halt was for a total of about 10 minutes. [388]
• There appeared to be a lodge pole trail there. [397]
3. The command then moved in a straight line for about 300 yards. [388]
4. They followed the lodge pole trail. They moved very fast. [397]
5. Custer then moved a little to the right, going another 400 or 500 yards. [388]
6. There was “a kind of big bend on the hill. He turned these hills and went on top of the ridge. All at once we looked on the bottom and saw the Indian village… We could see only children and dogs and ponies around the village. No Indians at all.” [388] [This could very well fit in with DeRudio’s testimony that he saw Custer, not on Weir Peak, but some 600 yards downriver from Reno’s entrenchment area.]
• Martini judged this to be around 12 o’clock noon. [394]
• He said there was no dust; he reiterated they “could see the dogs and children around the tepees.” [395]
• Custer said, “Courage boys, we have got them. The Indians are asleep in their tepees.” [395]
7. They could see nothing of Reno’s column as they went down river across the hills. [388] [They were probably back off the ridgeline far enough so they could not see the near side—the river side—of the valley.]
8. Martini rode within about two yards of Custer, to his rear and left. [389]
9. The Gray Horse Company was in the center of the column. [389]
10. They could see the river when they were on top of the ridge. [389]
11. They heard no firing as they went down a ravine. [389]
12. They always moved at a gallop. [389]
13. [Here is where Martini’s testimony starts getting fouled up.] When asked how far—distance—they had traveled from where they had watered to where they looked down to see the village, he replied, “… about an hour and a half after we left the watering place till we got to that place.” [He could not have been talking about the morass.] [389] [Elisabeth Kimber brought out the point that, “Graham interprets the ‘hour and a half’ to be either a slip of the tongue, or a mistake in the written record; he thinks what was meant was ‘a mile and a half’. That would make much more sense, I think ... In which case the watering place he's referring to is presumably North Fork?”]
14. [This is now very interesting.] “We went more to the right from that ridge and went down to a ravine that went to the river. At the same time General Custer passed that high place on the ridge or a little below it he told his adjutant to send an order back to Captain Benteen.” [390] [Notice that Martini did not say Custer went up to “that high place.” I will make the assumption “that high place” is Weir Peak.]
15. Martini then states the command “went more to the right from that ridge and went down to a ravine that went to the river.” As Custer went past “that high place on the ridge,” he told the adjutant to send a message back to Benteen. [390] [The assumption now is that the “high place on the ridge” is Weir Peaks and the ravine is Cedar Coulee. Martini would not have known that Cedar Coulee would not go to the river, but would empty into MTC. Furthermore, Martini would probably have understood Custer to say something like, we’ll take this ravine to the river.]
• According to Martini’s testimony, this “high place” is now Weir Peaks. He was asked if Custer went there and he said no, only the Indian scouts did. [398]
• It looks like Martini was given the note right near the head of Cedar Coulee. [395]
• [The head of Cedar Coulee is close to ½ mile upstream—before—from Weir Peaks and loaf. The coulee head would be reached well before the command reached Weir Point.] Martini said it was the highest point and it was 500 yards from the head of the coulee. [397] [The place where DeRudio saw Custer was almost exactly 500 yards upstream from the head of the coulee, but Weir was farther away—and downstream—than 500 yards.]
• [The topo map shows a high point—3,411 feet—just downstream from Reno Hill and about 3/10 of a mile—500 yards—upstream from the head of Cedar Coulee. This high point is only 2 feet less than Weir Peaks (3,413 feet). The topo map shows Weir to be close to ½ mile downstream from the head of Cedar Coulee.]
• Custer’s column was galloping which ties in with DeRudio’s timing scenario. [395]
16. Martini was asked who Custer was with “on the hill.” This was after he was asked about “that high point,” probably referring to Weir Peaks. Martini’s response to the question was Custer was riding with his brother [Tom] and his nephew. [398] [Again, there is confusion in Martini’s testimony and I believe it has to do with the way the questions were worded. The “high point” refers to Weir, but Martini heard “the hill” and that was where the command was riding, i. e., up to Reno Hill.]
The Note and the Ride to Benteen—
17. Martini was given a note and instructed to bring it to Benteen. He was also told to come back to the Custer command if there was no danger otherwise he was to stay with his company. [390]
18. Cooke told Martini to follow the same trail they had come on and to hurry. [390 and 391]
• Martini was with Cooke for no more than 10 minutes. [395]
• The river could not be seen from here, Martini said. [398]
19. Martini said Custer did not stop; Cooke stopped to write the message. [391]
20. Martini rode back some 500 or 600 yards—maybe 3/4 of a mile—and went on the same ridge where Custer had seen the village. [It is hardly believable Martini would have ridden up to Weir Peaks.] He looked into the bottom—but he did not stop—and saw Reno’s command engaged. [390]
• Q: “Was his line deployed in skirmish form?”
A: “Yes, sir.” [395]
• Martini did not see Reno in the timber. [396]
• Martini saw no dust in the village. [397]
21. About 300 to 400 yards above the creek where Custer had stopped to water his horses [North Fork], Martini met Benteen. [390]
• Benteen was on the march, not halted. [392]
• Once given the message, Benteen “went a little livelier.” [392]
• They met below the tepee, closer to the LBH. They were not within sight of the tepee. [398]
22. Martini gave the message to Benteen, who read it and put it in his pocket. Benteen told Martini to go back to CPT McDougall, “to bring up the pack train and keep it well up.” [390]
• Benteen denied sending Martini back to McDougall. Benteen testified that if Martini went to the packs he did so of his own accord. See p. 433. This is reasonable and makes sense.
• See Martini’s statement to W. A. Graham for Graham’s article in “The Cavalry Journal,” given just before Martini died in 1922. Martini agreed with Benteen, saying he was misunderstood at the RCOI because of his poor English. Martini admitted then that Benteen never gave him any order for McDougall. [Graham, The Custer Myth, p. 291]
23. “Captain Benteen asked me where General Custer was. I said I supposed that by that time he had made a charge through the village and that was all I said.” [390]
24. Martini said nothing about Reno. Benteen did not ask. [391]
25. Martini thought it took him about 3/4 of an hour to reach Benteen. [391]
• He thought he reached Benteen some 15 or 20 minutes after seeing Reno fighting in the valley. [391]
• Martini thought he traveled about 2 miles in reaching Benteen. [396]
• More confusion: Q: “How long did it take you to go from General Custer to Captain Benteen…?”
A: “I can’t tell. I judge I went 5 miles.” [396] … An hour to 1 1/2 hours. [396] [Martini was clearly confused and must have been referring to his round-trip.]
26. Martini claimed he found McDougall only 150 yards behind the Benteen column’s rear, at the front of his command. Martini thought the packs “were pretty well together.” [391 and 396]
• The packs were moving at all speeds: walking, running, trotting. [392]
27. Martini told McDougall to hurry and to keep the packs closed. McDougall did so. [392]
28. Martini then went back to H Company and rode on the left of it. [392]
29. They followed Custer’s trail. [392]
• Martini said they got on the ridge where he had seen Reno fighting [the same spot?] and saw Reno’s command retreating to the same side of the river they were on. [392]
• This was clarified a little when Martini was asked by Lyman Gilbert to look at the map and try to identify where Martini saw the village. Martini replied, “It was on a line leading from Major Reno’s position to the point ‘7’ [‘7’ was the point DeRudio put on the map as being the spot where he saw Custer, Cooke, and an unidentified person: could be Martini] as I understand the map, because when I came back a little bit beyond our position on the hill I saw Major Reno’s column fighting.” [394]
• When asked to pinpoint the distance between where Martini was given the note and Reno’s hilltop position, Martini said he “could not judge.” He then gave the same distance of “500 or 600 yards… 3/4 of a mile,” as he gave earlier when asked where he saw Reno fighting on his trip back to Benteen. [395]
On Reno Hill—
30. Reno’s men were retreating when Benteen arrived on the hilltop. [396]
• Martini judged it took about 45 minutes after meeting Benteen to when they reached Reno on the hilltop. [396]
31. It took the packs 10 to 15 minutes to come up. Everything was up in 15 minutes. [392] [Martini’s timing seems off here.]
The Move to Weir Peaks—
32. Martini then said they waited for some men from the bottom and for some packs to come up and then moved downstream. He thought it was about 1 1/2 hours after the packs had arrived before they moved. [392]
33. Martini claimed Weir moved with the command: “It went with the battalion when we went downstream.” [393] [Martini is obviously wrong here. That makes a lot of little things rather suspect.]
34. By the time he got to the head of the ravine, Weir’s company had moved a little to the right, and then started back. [393]
35. When he reached the head of the ravine, Martini could see Indians. They turned around and started back. [393]
After Weir Peaks—
36. The following exchange is unclear: Q: “Did you come near the place where you first saw Major Reno?”
A: “No, sir. It was a little further down the stream.” [393] [What was farther down? The place where they came to or where Martini first saw Reno? See above.]
• He later clarified this by saying it was about the same place. That still ties in with DeRudio’s testimony. [395]
The 26th—
37. Martini was then trumpeter for Reno’s battalion. [394]
1908 and 1910—Walter Camp Interviews Conducted: 24Oct1908 and 4May1910.
1. Martini said Custer’s only orderlies on the 25th were himself, Dose of G Company, and a Bishop of C Company. He was certain of it, but he is incorrect and Camp picks it up. [99] [This alone should be reason to begin questioning some of Martini’s accounts.]
2. Martini did not see any Indians on the bluffs (when Custer separated from Reno). [100]
3. Before Custer reached the high ridge, he marched in a column of twos with E Company in the middle. [100] [This means he changed formations once the terrain dictated such a change.]
4. Claims Custer never left his command to wave his hat and when he was on the high point, his whole command was with him, sitting on their horses. “As soon as the command left this high point everybody passed out of sight from Reno’s position and went down the hollow toward Dry Creek.” [100, FN 3] [Martini doesn’t remember seeing Boyer or the Crows at this time.]
5. Martini’s route description agreed exactly with Curley and Kanipe [Camp]. [100]
6. “Then Custer halted command on the high ridge about 10 minutes, and officers looked at village through glasses. Saw children and dogs playing among the tepees but no warriors or horses except few loose ponies grazing around. There was then a discussion among the officers as to where the warriors might be and someone suggested that they might be buffalo hunting…” [100]
• In the later interview, Martini said Custer halted on Weir hill, but could only see about 1/3 of the village.
• “Martini says whole column passed over the high ridge from which they could plainly see village and children and dogs in it. Martini says he was with Custer after he passed the high ground and left him just as the command started down a ravine to get off the bluff, somewhat to the right of highest ground and about 1,000 feet from it.” [103, FN 2]
7. Custer now made a speech saying they would go down, make a crossing, and capture the village. The whole command cheered. The consensus among the officers was that if this could be done, the Indians would surrender rather than fire on their own people. [100]
8. Commands were given: “Attention.” “Fours right.” “Column right.” “March.” The command went down off the hill and then “Column left,” and the command passed down a ravine toward the dry creek (MTC). Claimed Custer followed the coulee all the way (Cedar?), not cutting across “the hill.” [100; and FN 4, 100]
9. Column went about 1/2 mile when Cooke gave Martini the message for Benteen. Instructed to come back if he saw no danger. [100]
a. Martini then claimed about half way down the Dry Creek they came into full view of the village. [103] [Martini is completely confused here. Earlier, he had stated when he started out with the message they had not yet seen the village.]
b. After he had left with the message, he traveled, “500 or 600 yards or perhaps 3/4 mile, ‘I got on same ridge from which Genl. Custer saw the village the first time and on looking down on the bottom I saw Major Reno and his command engaged already…’ Thinks that from the time he saw Reno he was 15 or 20 minutes getting up to Benteen.” [103, FN 5]
c. Thought he left Custer some two miles north of Reno Hill.
d. In the second interview Martini says he cut across the high ground, not taking MTC to the north – south coulee (Cedar?). [103 – 104]
10. Martini started back on the trail and before he got to the hill where the command had halted, he heard heavy firing off to his right. Was not sure if it was Custer or Reno, but later supposed it was at Ford B. [101]
11. In the second interview Martini said when he got to the high ground he looked back and saw Custer’s command over on the flat, appearing to be falling back. [104]
12. Met Boston Custer. Boston pointed out to him that Martini’s horse had been hit. [104]
a. Half – way between “medium coulee and Weir Hill.” [104, FN 7]
b. “Soon after… met the two men.” [104, FN 7] [These had to be two stragglers.]
c. After this is when he heard a volley then looked back to see Custer “retreating.” [104, FN 7]
13. Then, again in the second interview, he says he, “kept on up the north and south coulee and soon met a mounted man whom I recognized as one of C troop… After this I met Boston Custer…” [104] [Camp claims this was when Martini was on the bluffs. “This is another good proof that Custer hesitated and stopped some considerable time after he came in sight of village.” [104, FN 8]]
14. When he got to top of ridge he looked into the village and saw Indians swarming toward the ford. [101]
15. At the same time, he said he saw Custer, “retreating up the open country in the direction of the battlefield.” [101] [This could be a serious timing issue here. How long would it have taken Martini to reach this point versus him being able to see Custer “retreating” into the open country toward the battlefield?]
16. Claims Benteen asked him if Custer was being attacked and he replied, yes.
17. Denies ever having said the Indians were “skedaddling.” [101]
18. At one time, Martini says packs reached Reno Hill 10 – 15 minutes behind Benteen. In another instance, he said three hours. [104, FN 9]
19. Did not see Reno or Indians or any fighting.
20. After beginning to mount bluffs with Benteen, they met three Crows who pointed out Reno’s men were retreating across the LBH. [104]
21. Claimed to have seen four Crows with Reno for the two days on the hilltop.
22. 1SG Butler’s horse was killed with him. [102]
23. He saw the “heap” of dead in the gully between Custer and the river. [102]
24. Not half as many dead horses as men. [102]
25. Benteen secured Keogh’s Agnus Dei emblem from around his neck. [102]
26. Martini showed Benteen where Cooke had given him the note and Benteen estimated it was some 600 yards from Ford B. [105]
27. Martini saw the body of a white man in the village. [105]
1922—Graham, W. A., COL, The Custer Myth. Stackpole Books, Mechanicsburg, PA: 1953 (2000). From an article written by Graham and published in the July 1923, edition of The Cavalry Journal. Graham does not say when Martini told this story, but it certainly seems like it was some time in 1922. Martini died shortly thereafter, on Christmas Eve, 1922.
NOTE—This commentary is vastly different from the testimony Martini gave at the RCOI and even differs from what he told Walter Camp.
1. Shortly before 8 AM on June 25, Benteen told Martini to report to General Custer for orderly trumpeter duty. This was “several” miles from the divide, obviously at Halt 1. [288] [Three miles from the divide.]
2. When Martini reported to Custer, the general was speaking to Bloody Knife and merely acknowledged Martini with a nod of the head. [289]
3. Custer was dressed “in a blue-gray flannel shirt, buckskin trousers, and long boots. He wore a regular company hat. His yellow hair was cut short—not very short; but it was not long and curly on his shoulders like it used to be.” [289]
4. Shortly, Custer jumped on his horse—bareback—and rode around the camp talking in low tones to his officers. [289]
5. Martini said the command was ready by 8:30 AM and the scouts went on ahead, the troops following about 15 minutes later. He said they moved slowly and Martini rode about two yards behind Custer. [289] [I find this incredible. It is hard to believe Custer would slowly mosey along after getting reports that the village had been spotted. What sense does that make?]
6. Martini then says this march lasted about 2 hours and they halted in a deep ravine. [289] [That means the command took 2 hours to go approximately 3 miles! This is sheer nonsense.]
7. Custer now went to the Crow’s Nest and according to Martini, “was gone a long time.” [289] [I am more inclined to believe this “long time” than the business about taking two hours to march three miles.]
8. When Custer returned “they” told him about finding fresh pony tracks nearby and that the Sioux had spotted the command in the ravine. Custer ordered Martini to sound officers’ call. [289]
9. None of the men were allowed near the officers and shortly they were on the march again, crossing the divide about noon. [289] [In his RCOI testimony, Martini stated they viewed the village from the bluffs around noon. Too many contradictions here.]
10. As they moved down the Reno Creek valley—Martini does not indicate any speed—scouts were moving in and out and Custer would gallop ahead to look around. [289]
11. They came to a tepee with a dead Indian in it. The scouts fired the lodge. [289]
12. “Just a little off from that there was a little hill, from which Gerard, one of the scouts, saw some Indians between us and the river. He called to the general and pointed them out. He said they were running away.” [289]
13. Reno had already been summoned to come across the creek and was riding up. Custer told Cooke to give Reno the order to attack the village. “[Custer] would support him with the whole regiment. He said he would go down to the other end and drive them, and that he would have Benteen hurry up and attack them in the center.” [289] [This is not unreasonable and it is just about where Custer would have finalized his plans for the attack. The problem I have with it is that Custer failed to tell Reno what “support” meant and Martini, some 46 years after the fact, suddenly remembers Custer’s precise plans. I wonder if this is merely the power of suggestion and rationalization at work.]
14. Reno moved out at a trot while Custer followed for a few hundred yards, then swung to the right. [289]
15. “We went at a gallop, too. (Just stopped once to water the horses.) The General seemed to be in a big hurry.” [289] [Now suddenly, Custer is in a big hurry. What has changed? Gerard’s comment about the Indians running? If this is true now, why wouldn’t it have been so when Custer first got the report—at Halt 1—of a big village?]
16. “After we had gone about a mile or two we came to a big hill that overlooked the valley, and we rode around the base of it and halted.” [289] [This certainly sounds like Sharpshooters’ Ridge, but he does not say which side they rode around.]
17. Now suddenly Custer takes Martini and views the valley from “the top of the hill.” [289] [Again, unless Martini is referring to “3411” as his hill, this flies in the face of his RCOI testimony.]
18. Martini said they could not see the entire village from the top of the hill, though “several hundred tepees were in plain sight.” [289 – 290]
19. Martini now states they saw nothing of Reno’s column from the top of the hill. All they could see were “some squaws and children playing and a few dogs and ponies. The General seemed both surprised and glad, and said the Indians must be sleeping.” Martini was sure Custer couldn’t see Reno, even though he was peering through field glasses. [290] [This is almost preposterous.]
20. Custer now turned in his saddle, took off his hat and waved it to his men—“halted at the base of the hill”—and shouted, “Hurrah, boys, we’ve got them! We’ll finish them up and then go home to our station.” [290] [It is interesting how Custer could merely turn in his saddle and be in view of his command without moving toward the crest of the hilltop.]
21. From here, Custer rode down to his troops, spoke briefly with LT Cooke, then the entire command rode very rapidly until they came “to a big ravine that led in the direction of the river…” This was about one mile from where they viewed the village and about three miles from where they left Reno. [290]
22. Custer now called Martini and told him—directly—that he wanted him to ride back to Benteen and tell him of the big village and to hurry and bring the ammunition packs. Cooke told Martini to hold it for a moment while he wrote out a note. The column never stopped during this time. [290] [Again, completely different from Martini’s RCOI testimony. This has become a “pick-and-choose” option for various writers; whatever suits their agenda seems to be the “testimony” they like to quote.]
23. In what is a very revealing comment, Martini now says, “The Adjutant had told me to follow our trail back, and so in a few minutes I was back on the same hill again where the General and I had looked at the village…” [290] [Why would Martini go back onto “the hill” if the hill was either Weir Peak or Sharpshooters’ Ridge? The command’s “trail” would not have gone on either point, but around the base of SSR—or so Martini said—or into Cedar Coulee if Custer had gone to Weir. Weir Peaks is obviously out of the question because if they had viewed the village from there, Custer would have been able to see the whole thing. The only place where any of this makes sense is the edge of the bluffs, exactly where DeRudio said he saw Custer and two others and where it seems Martini was alluding to in his RCOI testimony.]
24. Martini said that just before he got to “the hill,” he met Boston Custer riding at a run. Boston asked him where the general was. [290]
25. When Martini reached the top of the hill he looked down and saw Reno in action. He claimed it had been no more than 10 or 15 minutes since he was on the hill with Custer and now he saw lots of Indians and Reno on a skirmish line. He said he did not stop to watch, yet he saw the line falling back. [290]
26. Martini followed the trail all the way back to where Custer watered the horses. He was moving “at a jog trot…” [290]
27. Finally, he saw Benteen a few hundred yards away. Benteen “was riding quite a distance in front of [his] troops, with his orderly trumpeter, at a fast trot.” The nearest officer was CPT Weir, 200 or 300 yards behind Benteen. [290]
28. Martini gave Benteen the note and Benteen asked him where Custer was. Martini replied that the Indians they saw were running and he supposed the general had charged through the village by now. [290]
29. Martini now tried to clarify something from the RCOI. He made a point of saying Benteen never told him to go back and give any order to CPT McDougall and the packs. He said that at the RCOI he did not speak English very well and his testimony was misunderstood. [291] [See RCOI, p. 390.]
30. Martini’s horse had been wounded—Benteen pointed it out to him—and he was given another horse, rejoining his company. He spotted the pack train, maybe a mile back, but Benteen moved out quickly and Martini soon lost sight of the packs. [291]
31. [Martini now seems to confuse his statements again:] “We followed General Custer’s trail until we got near the ridge where the General and I had first seen the village.” [291] [How can this be? Even if it was Sharpshooter’s Ridge, that is well beyond where Reno reached the top of the bluffs. Martini is obviously perplexed when it comes to where and who looked into the valley.]
32. He goes on to say they could see Reno’s fight in the valley and his men retreating. [291]
33. When they arrived at the hilltop, they met Reno who pleaded with Benteen for help. Benteen asked where Custer was, but Reno did not know other than he went downstream. [291]
34. “We heard a lot of firing down the river; it kept up for a half hour or maybe more. It sounded like a big fight was going on, and the men thought it was General Custer, and that he was whipping the Indians, and we all wanted to hurry on and join him, but they wouldn’t let us go. Captain Weir had some words with Colonel Reno, and I could tell by the way he was acting that he was excited and angry.” [291] [More fairy tales! “We all wanted to hurry…”? Weir had words with Reno? Not according to others who were there. Sounds a little too much like the “Me, me” syndrome again.]
35. They heard some volleys and Weir jumped on his horse and headed downriver, followed by his company. [291] [Is this a timing issue here? Volleys, then Weir’s move?]
36. The ammunition mules arrived in about 15 minutes [from the time Benteen arrived on the hilltop?], but it was more than an hour before the last of the pack mules arrived. [291]
37. They moved downriver to join Weir’s command, but the Indians began coming up “by the thousand.” They thought the Indians had held off Custer and that he had headed downriver to join Terry. No one thought his command had been wiped out. [291]
38. The fight the following morning started just before daylight and kept up until the middle of the afternoon. [291]
That's it. I hope this is useful to someone.
Best wishes,
Fred.